• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

DUI Without driving your car? Conviction upheld!

lori4dogs

New Member
Doesn't depend at all. If you are not driving you are not driving. If the car is parked and the motor is not on then you are not driving no matter what the idiots call it.

I'm glad you don't make the laws. I hope you never lose a loved one because of the leniency the real 'idiots' are shown in states like Washington, but if you do, you will probably change the way you think.

BTW, the article I posted shows the difference between 'operating motor vehicle under the influence' and 'driving under the influence'.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm glad you don't make the laws. I hope you never lose a loved one because of the leniency the real 'idiots' are shown in states like Washington, but if you do, you will probably change the way you think.

BTW, the article I posted shows the difference between 'operating motor vehicle under the influence' and 'driving under the influence'.


Nothing I have said speaks to any amount of leniency. Maybe you should go back and read the first post you quoted in full. There is no operation or driving if the car is parked and not running. And as a former law enforcement I have seen enough of it.
 

preachinjesus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Seems some here are a bit more tied to this issue emotionally. Maybe best to step back from the keyboard and take a couple of deep breaths, then count to ten, then...well go do something else for awhile.
 

windcatcher

New Member
1st, I empathize with Lori..... BUT... it becomes part of our maturing experience to recognize when the influence of our experience, bitterness/loss or desire for prevention or correction exceeds the reasonable bounds of justice and balance: Law and its enforcement is often predicated and motivated by emotional components, which are often far reaching and more motivating to action..... than a rational and objective judgment based upon facts: Emotions drive people to actions and judgment but are seldom trustworthy nor rational. This is also true of me: When I think of some personal experience which is/was emotionally charged..... it is only with real effort and personal awareness and recognition that I am able to separate my judgment based upon the heat of emotions from the rationality and desire to be just. And this is no 'put down' to others..... and those who've read my posts can no doubt see those moments and situations where my buttons are pushed, and judgment is less rational.


Someone sitting in the car not moving is not driving. While it may be necessary to make doing that illegal it is not DUI (Driving Under the Influence).
Unlawful?
I agree. I wonder, after reading some comments, is it true that the LEO (law enforcement officer) had no discretion because of policy? Maybe an arrest for 'public drunkenness based upon the complaint of the driver's neighbor?

Removal of property?
If he was already parked legally at the location of his apartment, what is the justice of impounding his car and creating additional costs to him? I do find it difficult to consider that keys in the console are considered 'out of reach' if his console is similar to any of a number which I've ever seen..... but they weren't in the ignition!

Who judges the thoughts and intents?
It seems it is a very dangerous and slippery slope when law starts enforcing judgments and punishments based upon 'intentions' or 'thought'. What human being is capable of correctly judging the mind or heart of another? Isn't this entering an area of privilege to God alone?

Recognizing/ identifying with our own understanding?
We might personally challenge the motives of others based upon our own understanding.... but this does not mean that we or juries made of human flesh are capable of making an accurate determination or judgment. How does one examine the 'thoughts' of another? In a court of law..... a person is supposed to be protected from giving self evidence or witness against himself..... provided he is properly advised by counsel. Just what if that man had companions in his apartment and knew with all that alcohol he would be irritable, or angry, or violent company if he did not go to where he was alone?

What is the crime?
If it is the past convictions or charges.... the judgment should have taken place at that time and not have been deferred for a later event. If the crime was public drunkenness.... the neighbor was a witness. If the crime was driving.... the man didn't even have his keys in the ignition.... but, even to sleep in his car... he likely needed them to unlock the door.

His crime was sitting in the driver's seat while intoxicated. This does appear exceptional to most of us...... but is it? What if he was sitting in the passenger seat...... would that have made a difference in his case? (Most likely in his case, it would.)

IMO, this was unjust. Yes, I'm glad a man is not driving drunk on the roads.... but he wasn't, in this case. Once the police had possession of his keys.... he couldn't have driven, even if he woke up drunk. In this case.... if the law fully supported this conviction.... it goes beyond the justice of committing a crime except that the law makes it one by the way it has been defined.... but no real crime occurred. The law should be judged.

As another points out.... if sitting behind the wheel in the presence of keys constitutes 'driving' or control, even in a parked car..... then a child or unlicensed person is also 'guilty' .........so is a person who escapes the noise of their home to rest while medicated for a migraine headache.

As a driver on the road.... I have the right to expect laws are enforce which keeps the roads safe for me when driving..... But, as a citizen who expects my rights to be liberal and the laws to be as least restrictive as necessary to maintain civility and peace... for others as well as myself.... I think this verdict and sentence is unjust. However, perhaps a good outcome.... provided this man is willing to change instead of becoming hardened and embittered is that he'll sober up and determine to stay dry once he's released. Let's hope this is the outcome.
 

windcatcher

New Member
Depends on what state you live in. Here is another case in Connecticut in which a person sitting in the drivers seat with the keys in the ignition but with the motor off was convicted (and upheld) of operating a motor vehicle under the influence. Laws DO need to change. The innocent need protection from these self-centered idiots.

If you don't like the laws in such states as Minnesota or Connecticut, do yourself a favor and don't drink/do drugs and get behind the wheel of a vehicle there.

http://www.dui.com/dui-library/connecticut/news/high-court-decision

In this case.... damned if you do and damned if you don't.... since alcohol already interferes with judgment.... the drunk might as easily decide to get on the roads and take his chances with the law if caught.... than taking a break in the parking lot after drinking, for his head to clear and his system to metabolize and detoxify the alcohol before driving. Either way.... by your standard.... he's selfish and already judged.

Sleeping in a parking lot at a business which sells alcohol.... whether with or without food.... is almost like leaving a calling card for the police to pick him up for a DUI in such an instance: if he takes his chances on the road.... with care ..... he just might make it home without getting caught.... once his vehicle gets mixed with other traffic. So you would prefer conditions to cause him to make this judgment...... GREAT! Your grief grieves me more...... because people will drink..... and they will drink when out away from home..... whether you and I agree or not..... but these kinds of enforcements do NOTHING to keep them off the road: In fact, it encourages this as it punishes the drunk who takes a safe break until he sobers up..... by sleeping in a parking lot.

The drunk person belongs in jail. Zero tolerance for people demonstrating depraved indifference for human life.

The idea that the police officer should have taken the keys away from the man sitting behind the wheel and taken him home instead of arresting him is absurd. Maybe you will change the way you think if one of your loved ones is killed by someone who has been repeatedly enabled in such a way
So what are you going to do to change this? Define 'drunk'. Define 'zero tolerance'. Isn't a 'drunk' just irresponsible for drinking too much....... or is 'he' depraved, indifferent for human life, and a self centered idiot........ under every condition? Or do you mean on the road..... where he endangers others, or in the presence of others if his reaction to alcohol results in anger or violence? (Not everyone becomes a 'nasty obnoxious' drunk.... even though they may act like a fool.)

Zero tolerance? Many DUI's and DWI's include a range of medications by prescriptions which do not affect everyone's judgment the same: Some of these medication which possess transient side effects affecting response, reflexes, judgment include medications for chronic conditions.... anti-eleptics, anti-psychotics, blood pressure medications, heart disease medications, chronic conditions which relate to pain and mobility if not maintained.... Would you suggest a universal 'zero tolerance' for these without regard to whether or not the individual is impaired or able to compensate.... by his body's ability to metabolize? Is it enough that these are found in one's system.... or is it possible and sufficient to demonstrate that such a person on medication is able to perform complex functions and demonstrate functions of good judgment?

In New York State, the following justifies a charge of murder:

Murder, refers to someone who, with "depraved indifference to human life," engages in conduct that creates a grave risk of death that ultimately kills someone. The punishment for "depraved indifference" murder is 25 years to life in prison.

Drunk drivers who take the lives of the innocent are, indeed, guilty of murder.
But........ wouldn't you agree.....
a person is not guilty of 'murder' until a life is taken?

I'm glad you don't make the laws. I hope you never lose a loved one because of the leniency the real 'idiots' are shown in states like Washington, but if you do, you will probably change the way you think.

BTW, the article I posted shows the difference between 'operating motor vehicle under the influence' and 'driving under the influence'.

Actually the article did not make any such distinction. "State laws, however, don't articulate just what that difference is."

I'm glad not to be making the laws.... and I'm glad you're not making them either. First, I'm sure I would never please everyone.... which, no matter what the position, is the impossible task we expect of our lawmakers..... And, for you.... ( and I love you and hate that you've suffered such great losses that the wound still hurts so badly), I believe you'd create a law too harsh to be realistic which would bring enough convictions to be effective enforcement if you stopped short of making alcohol illegal..... which would probably increase crime, smuggling and add to the vices in high places.... making it unenforceable and turning some areas into war zones like earlier days of prohibition.
:1_grouphug:
I mean you well, Lori, and sorry for your pain... somethings take time.... and somethings keep hurting no matter how much time passes. Alcohol is a devil in the lives of many..... but, as a 'sin' .....any sin which controls us leads to death...... and there is no such 'lessor' sin, in the life of a believer who gives it place..... which does not work a rebellion and a 'type' of witchcraft against the very God who bought us with the precious gift of His Son.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
My position is simple. Anyone impaired by alcohol or drugs should not be behind the wheel of a vehicle. If a person needs to 'sleep it off', that person should be in the passenger seat or the back seat (the more logical and comfortable places wouldn't you say?) or better yet, call a taxi, friend, or relative.

I firmly believe that anyone who has a DUI on their record should be required to have breathelizer controled ignition systems. I don't know about other states but they work well in California. Unfortunately, they are only required in hard core cases.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
IN the US no one is guilty until a judge or jury decides he is guilty.

Bill, I basically agree with you, but just a bit of technicality.

The correct phrase is: A citizen is PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty.

One other "minor" detail. Did you know that approximately 40% of all collisions involved booze. But those 40% of collisions are NOT all caused by booze. For example. I am DWI at .09 BAC. I come to a 4 way stop sign - I stop look, and safely proceed. Out of nowhere Lori runs the other stop sign (because she is texting) and runs into me. That will be considered a alcoholic related collision, because I was DWI, even though I was NOT at fault. Hmm, goes right along with the OP

So, I propose for those who want to throw the book at a person with a DWI (and I am not defending their action) then lets change the law so if anyone gets just one major moving violation (red light, speeding, tailgating, talking on the phone, ect) should have their license revoked!

From what many of you are saying, you must agree with me.

Salty
 
Last edited by a moderator:

lori4dogs

New Member
On average, one person is killed by a drunk driver every 45 minutes in the United States. One in every three Americans will be involved in an alcohol related accident sometime in their lives.

People who text-and-drive are idiots as well.

I do agree that suspending or revoking a liscense does not have that big of an effect. Fifty to seventy-five percent of the convicted drunk drivers with suspended or revoked liscenses continue to drive.

I have mentioned in several posts of requireing breathizer activated ignitions in vehicles of people previously convicted of drunk driving. Is that 'too severe'??
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
I have mentioned in several posts of requiring breathizer activated ignitions in vehicles of people previously convicted of drunk driving. Is that 'too severe'?? ... one person is killed by a drunk driver every 45 minutes

Actually, I prefer that a DWI requires a license revocation (not suspension).

Remember that stat for "every 45 minutes" is based on a alcoholic related collision - Not a Drunk driver!

And now your thoughts about revoking a license for other major moving violations?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

lori4dogs

New Member
'Remember that stat for "every 45 minutes" is based on a alcoholic related collision - Not a Drunk driver!'

Not according to MADD: 'On average someone is killed by a drunk driver every 45 minutes. In 2008, an estimated 11,773 people died in drunk driving related crashes—'

I prefer revocation as well, but it is not that effective as I a stated before.

As far as other violations, on a case by case basis. When there is evidence of willful negligence which puts others lives in danger maybe these people don't deserve the right to operate a vehicle.

With DUI the statistics are overwhelming. If a person is intoxicated they should never be behind the wheel of a motor vehicle, running or not. The risks are just too great.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Not according to MADD: 'On average someone is killed by a drunk driver every 45 minutes. In 2008, an estimated 11,773 people died in drunk driving related crashes—'

Consider the source. Remember, they have an agenda. I'm not saying it is a bad agenda in itself, but it is often tempting to "rearrange" the facts to make your point. The question is what % of those 32 people who died each day in a drunk driving related crash was caused by the drunk? I would say it is high - 80-90 %. All I saying is give me ALL the info. As Fox news says "We report (the facts) you decide"

One other thing about MADD. Just what is their mission statement.
1. Prevent drunk driving
2. Prevent underage drinking
3. Strive to decrease drinking at all ages.

I trust it would be all of the above

Interesting observation about MADD:
...Balko wrote. "But MADD is at heart a bureaucracy, a big one. It boasts an annual budget of $45 million, $12 million of which pays for salaries, pensions and benefits. Bureaucracies don't change easily, even when the problems they were created to address change."[7]
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
...The question is what % of those 32 people who died each day in a drunk driving related crash was caused by the drunk? I would say it is high - 80-90...

Did some additional checking from the link in my post above. The stats are that 5,000 (13 per day) of the deaths are "innocent victims" which is about 40% of the total.
I do agree that even one innocent death is one too many, but as I stated above - give me ALL the facts.

Salty
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Here is the court ruling for the appeal from the Minnesota State Law Library Archives.

STATE OF MINNESOTA IN SUPREME COURT A08-72: Court of Appeals - State of Minnesota vs Daryl Fleck (pdf)
...
Minnesota law provides that it is unlawful for “any person to drive, operate, or be in physical control of a motor vehicle” while under the influence of alcohol or with an alcohol concentration of .08 or more. Minn. Stat. § 169A.20, subd. 1(1), (5). ... Physical control is meant to cover situations when an intoxicated person “is found in a parked vehicle under circumstances in which the [vehicle], without too much difficulty, might again be started and become a source of danger to the operator, to others, or to property.”... Thus, a person is in physical control of a vehicle if he has the means to initiate any movement of that vehicle, and he is in close proximity to the operating controls of the vehicle.

...

The purposes underlying the offense of being in physical control of a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol is to deter intoxicated persons from getting into vehicles except as passengers and to act as a preventive measure to “enable the drunken driver to be apprehended before he strikes.”

...

Mere presence in or about a vehicle is insufficient to show physical control; it is the overall situation that is determinative ... We consider a number of factors in determining whether a person is in physical control of a vehicle, including: the person’s location in proximity to the vehicle; the location of the keys; whether the person was a passenger in the vehicle; who owned the vehicle; and the vehicle’s operability.

...

Although the facts of this case are not those of the typical physical control case in which a jury can infer that the defendant was in physical control because he drove the vehicle to where it came to rest, a jury could reasonably find that Fleck, having been found intoxicated, alone, and sleeping behind the wheel of his own vehicle with the keys in the vehicle’s console, was in a position to exercise dominion or control over the vehicle and that he could, without too much difficulty, make the vehicle a source of danger. Based on the totality of the circumstances, the facts in the record, and the legitimate inferences drawn from them, we hold that a jury could reasonably conclude that Fleck was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of being in physical control of a vehicle with an alcohol concentration of .08 or more.
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
My first reaction was incredulity, then amusement, but thinking about it, and reading the pros and cons posted, I think I'll side with the officers pretty much like I'd side with an Arizona police officer for stopping a car of latinos driving too slowly on a known drug and human smuggling highway into Arizona from Mexico.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
pretty much like I'd side with an Arizona police officer for stopping a car of latinos driving too slowly on a known drug and human smuggling highway into Arizona from Mexico.

But you dont think that the cops should stop a car of blacks on a known drug highway?

Back to the OP - The law is too broad! the guy was sleeping.
 

RAdam

New Member
It can't be Driving under the influence if the person isn't driving. If they want to enforce a law saying a person cannot get behind the wheel of a vehicle drunk, I've got no problem with that. People being killed by drunk drivers just shouldn't happen, and I have no problem with harsh penalties regarding drunk driving. However, again, you can't called being passed out in a parked car driving under the influence. You could call it intent to drive, or being unlawfully behind the wheel, but not driving.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
It can't be Driving under the influence if the person isn't driving. If they want to enforce a law saying a person cannot get behind the wheel of a vehicle drunk, I've got no problem with that. People being killed by drunk drivers just shouldn't happen, and I have no problem with harsh penalties regarding drunk driving. However, again, you can't called being passed out in a parked car driving under the influence. You could call it intent to drive, or being unlawfully behind the wheel, but not driving.

Ditto :thumbsup: and double dittos :thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Jason Garrett

New Member
Again folks, you need to read the specific state statutes that define DUI or DWI or DWAI or whatever your state calls it. In Colorado, the DUI statute defines "Driving" as "exercising sufficient control" over the vehicle. Subsequent court rulings and determined sitting behind the wheel of a vehicle in possession of the key required to start and operate that vehicle is deemed to be "in sufficient control" over that vehicle and thus one is "DUI" if their BAC is high enough. There is no need by the officer to determine intent because the law has already done that for him. The Officer is simply enforcing the law the citizens of Colorado have agreed to. If they don't agree to it, they can petition to change it. We can bash law enforcement all we want and second guess them. That's fine and that's healthy, but be educated on your complaints before you hurl them. It makes one look very silly in the end.
 

billwald

New Member
When a fire arm is used in the commission of a crime or misdemeanor, it is confiscated. When a car is used in the commission of DWI, the car is returned to the driver or to whom he designates as soon as possible.

Why? Because in the US most cars of any value are owned by banks (legal owner) and not the registered owner. People don't make car payments on confiscated cars. No drunk driving law is going to stop the banks from collecting their pound of flesh.
 
Top