Dullards Anyone?

[Van]

Isiah 6:10 NASB
Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Matthew 13:15 NASB
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 28:27 NASB
FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE BECOME Dull.
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY HARDLY HEAR,

AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,

AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,

AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

Why would God need to harden or allow people to harden themselves if they were conceived with Total Spiritual Inability?

Why would Jesus need to speak in Parables in order to prevent some in His audience from understanding, repenting, and being healed if they all had no spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk?

Here is the hidden truth, the Fall did NOT cause total spiritual inability.

 

[Charlie24]

Isiah 6:10 NASB
Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Matthew 13:15 NASB
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 28:27 NASB
FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE BECOME Dull.
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY HARDLY HEAR,

AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,

AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,

AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

Why would God need to harden or allow people to harden themselves if they were conceived with Total Spiritual Inability?

Why would Jesus need to speak in Parables in order to prevent some in His audience from understanding, repenting, and being healed if they all had no spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk?

Here is the hidden truth, the Fall did NOT cause total spiritual inability.

Brother Van, my Brother in Christ, don't be upset with me Brother when I disagree.

Paul said that the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men. He also told us that even the Hebrews in the wilderness heard the Gospel as well as we have, but it did not benefit them not mixing it with faith.

We know that no man can come to the Father except He draws him. The draw is the hearing of the Gospel.

So man is incapable of coming to Christ without that draw of hearing the Gospel.

The examples you have given are simply the refusal by each person to accept and believe that Gospel.

God has dealt so long with His chosen Israel and they have refused to the point of God setting them on the back burner, so to speak, and is dealing with them on a separate basis than the Gentile people and Church.

God has, as Paul said, partially blinded them to the truth until the fulness of the Gentiles has come to full. In other words, God is saving the Gentiles through the Gentile Church and Israel is blind through their own will.

But Paul tells us that Israel will come out of that blindness at the appointed time, when God is finished with the calling of the Gentile Church.

 

[Marooncat79]

Isiah 6:10 NASB
Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Matthew 13:15 NASB
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 28:27 NASB
FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE BECOME Dull.
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY HARDLY HEAR,

AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,

AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,

AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

Why would God need to harden or allow people to harden themselves if they were conceived with Total Spiritual Inability?

Why would Jesus need to speak in Parables in order to prevent some in His audience from understanding, repenting, and being healed if they all had no spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk?

Here is the hidden truth, the Fall did NOT cause total spiritual inability.

What did?

 

[Van]

SNIP

The examples you have given are simply the refusal by each person to accept and believe that Gospel.

God has dealt so long with His chosen Israel and they have refused to the point of God setting them on the back burner, so to speak, and is dealing with them on a separate basis than the Gentile people and Church.

God has, as Paul said, partially blinded them to the truth until the fulness of the Gentiles has come to full. In other words, God is saving the Gentiles through the Gentile Church and Israel is blind through their own will.

But Paul tells us that Israel will come out of that blindness at the appointed time, when God is finished with the calling of the Gentile Church.

If this claim were true, Jesus would not need to speak in parables to prevent some from being healed.

And your timing may be wrong. When were the Jews partially blinded? According to my understanding some unspecified time before Paul revealed the mystery. Romans 11:25. It is unlikely God would have hardened the Jews before Christ brought the gospel to the Jews first. So after Matthew 13:15, because he spoke plainly to explain the parable to His disciples.

Last point, it is possible the partial blindness of the Jews effected to spread the gospel has been removed. It depends on what "the fullness of the Gentiles" means. I think it means the number sufficient at that time for God's purpose.

 

[Charlie24]

If this claim were true, Jesus would not need to speak in parables to prevent some from being healed.

And your timing may be wrong. When were the Jews partially blinded? According to my understanding some unspecified time before Paul revealed the mystery. Romans 11:25. It is unlikely God would have hardened the Jews before Christ brought the gospel to the Jews first. So after Matthew 13:15, because he spoke plainly to explain the parable to His disciples.

Last point, it is possible the partial blindness of the Jews effected to spread the gospel has been removed. It depends on what "the fullness of the Gentiles" means. I think it means the number sufficient at that time for God's purpose.

The apostles at the time with Christ didn't even understand the parables. We can see several times in the Gospels where the apostles, diciples at that time had no idea what He was saying. They understood after Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came and guided them in truth and brought back to them the parables and meaning.

The Jews had no excuse not to know that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, only those with a pure heart for God immediately recognized Him. The rest, especially the leaders/Sanhedrin had a heart for themselves and could not understand His words.

 

[Charlie24]

The apostles at the time with Christ didn't even understand the parables. We can see several times in the Gospels where the apostles, diciples at that time had no idea what He was saying. They understood after Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came and guided them in truth and brought back to them the parables and meaning.

The Jews had no excuse not to know that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, only those with a pure heart for God immediately recognized Him. The rest, especially the leaders/Sanhedrin had a heart for themselves and could not understand His words.

The 12 apostles were not saints when Christ called them, they were worldly men.

But God looked in the heart and could see what no other could see.

 

[Van]

The apostles at the time with Christ didn't even understand the parables. We can see several times in the Gospels where the apostles, disciples at that time had no idea what He was saying. They understood after Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came and guided them in truth and brought back to them the parables and meaning.

The Jews had no excuse not to know that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, only those with a pure heart for God immediately recognized Him. The rest, especially the leaders/Sanhedrin had a heart for themselves and could not understand His words.

It is true they grew in their understanding after Christ arose from the dead. But to claim Jesus wasted His time explaining the mystery to them before His resurrection is unsound. The point is Jesus spoke in parables to prevent understanding, but could provide understanding, at least to some, by speaking plainly. Thus total spiritual inability is hogwash.

 

[Charlie24]

The 12 apostles were not saints when Christ called them, they were worldly men.

But God looked in the heart and could see what no other could see.

It's like you, Van, or anyone else, what were you when Christ called you out of darkness into the light.

Maybe some of us would be ashamed to tell the truth.

 

[Charlie24]

It is true they grew in their understanding after Christ arose from the dead. But to claim Jesus wasted His time explaining the mystery to them before His resurrection is unsound. The point is Jesus spoke in parables to prevent understanding, but could provide understanding, at least to some, by speaking plainly. Thus total spiritual inability is hogwash.

I didn't say Christ wasted His time with the parables you said that!

I said the parables were brought back to the memory of the apostles after Christ left them and sent the Comforter.

 

[Van]

I didn't say Christ wasted His time with the parables you said that!

I said the parables were brought back to the memory of the apostles after Christ left them and sent the Comforter.

No I did NOT. You indicated Jesus wasted His time "EXPLAINING" the parables using plain speech has they didn't understand until indwelt.

 

[Charlie24]

No I did NOT. You indicated Jesus wasted His time "EXPLAINING" the parables using plain speech has they didn't understand until indwelt.

Something is wrong with your indicator if that's what you thought.

Several times Christ withdrew Himself from the people/Jews that believed He was the Messiah, but they didn't believe they needed salvation.

If Christ had spoken plainly they would have made Him the King Messiah under false pretenses.

By the time Christ came the Jews believed only a Jew could be saved and they were already saved through the circumcision of Abraham their father.

 

[Charlie24]

Something is wrong with your indicator if that's what you thought.

Several times Christ withdrew Himself from the people/Jews that believed He was the Messiah, but they didn't believe they needed salvation.

If Christ had spoken plainly they would have made Him the King Messiah under false pretenses.

By the time Christ came the Jews believed only a Jew could be saved and they were already saved through the circumcision of Abraham their father.

Speaking only for myself because I've never heard anyone say this, it's my conclusion, the parables were a shield a barrier if you will that separated false salvation from true salvation.

If their hearts were pure in the Scripture with God, they understood the need for salvation and they came through Christ to get it.

But the ones that heart of themselves with the circumcision salvation couldn't understand the need for salvation.

If you can understand what I'm saying, I'm not the best explainer.

 

[Charlie24]

Speaking only for myself because I've never heard anyone say this, it's my conclusion, the parables were a shield a barrier if you will that separated false salvation from true salvation.

If their hearts were pure in the Scripture with God, they understood the need for salvation and they came through Christ to get it.

But the ones that heart of themselves with the circumcision salvation couldn't understand the need for salvation.

If you can understand what I'm saying, I'm not the best explainer.

Israel still today see a national salvation based on the fact of being God's chosen people through the birthright passed down to them from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to the 12 tribes of Israel.

They see no need of individual repentance, they beleive in their chosen status and keeping a close relationship with God while waiting for the Messiah and restoration. Not all but this is mainstream in Israel.

 

[Van]

Something is wrong with your indicator if that's what you thought.

Several times Christ withdrew Himself from the people/Jews that believed He was the Messiah, but they didn't believe they needed salvation.

If Christ had spoken plainly they would have made Him the King Messiah under false pretenses.

By the time Christ came the Jews believed only a Jew could be saved and they were already saved through the circumcision of Abraham their father.

1) I said what you indicated.
2) Yes, lots of people did not fully understand Christ's message of the gospel. Not at issue.
3) Christ spoke plainly when He explained the parable, Matthew 13::18-23
4) What the Jews had believed is not at issue.

Here is what is at issue:

1) Scripture proves that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.
2) Fallen People start out with the ability to understand spiritual milk, which includes the fundamentals of the gospel.
3) Not the topic of this thread, but we disagree on Traditional Dispensationalism, I do not believe Israel is on the back burner.

Why would God need to harden or allow people to harden themselves if they were conceived with Total Spiritual Inability?

Why would Jesus need to speak in Parables in order to prevent some in His audience from understanding, repenting, and being healed if they all had no spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk?

 

[Charlie24]

1) I said what you indicated.
2) Yes, lots of people did not fully understand Christ's message of the gospel. Not at issue.
3) Christ spoke plainly when He explained the parable, Matthew 13::18-23
4) What the Jews had believed is not at issue.

Here is what is at issue:

1) Scripture proves that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.
2) Fallen People start out with the ability to understand spiritual milk, which includes the fundamentals of the gospel.
3) Not the topic of this thread, but we disagree on Traditional Dispensationalism, I do not believe Israel is on the back burner.

Why would God need to harden or allow people to harden themselves if they were conceived with Total Spiritual Inability?

Why would Jesus need to speak in Parables in order to prevent some in His audience from understanding, repenting, and being healed if they all had no spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk?

Van, you've got it all wrong! You are leaving out the main principle of salvation, that being free will.

The parables were not preventing anyone from seeing and understanding, the parables were shutting off a false salvation the Jews believed.

It was pride and self-righteousness in the Jews that they could not understand the need for true salvation in repentance and faith in Christ.

The Jews were willingly (free will) rejecting the true salvation of Christ for their own self righteousness.

They couldn't see the salvation of Christ because they didn't want to.

 

[Van]

Van, you've got it all wrong! You are leaving out the main principle of salvation, that being free will.

The parables were not preventing anyone from seeing and understanding, the parables were shutting off a false salvation the Jews believed.

It was pride and self-righteousness in the Jews that they could not understand the need for true salvation in repentance and faith in Christ.

The Jews were willingly (free will) rejecting the true salvation of Christ for their own self righteousness.

They couldn't see the salvation of Christ because they didn't want to.

It is pointless to continue, you did not answer my questions.

Jesus spoke in parables to prevent understanding in Matthew 13.

 

[Charlie24]

It is pointless to continue, you did not answer my questions.

Jesus spoke in parables to prevent understanding in Matthew 13.

Yes, and what does Mtt. 13:13 say?

"I speak unto them in parables they seeing see not, hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

I go back to my point of free will, they chose not to see and hear through their own self righteousness.

It wasn't the decision of Christ that they not understand, it was their own choice.

Christ was placing them in a box with only one way out, through Him.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, and what does Mtt. 13:13 say?

"I speak unto them in parables they seeing see not, hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

I go back to my point of free will, they chose not to see and hear through their own self righteousness.

It wasn't the decision of Christ that they not understand, it was their own choice.

Christ was placing them in a box with only one way out, through Him.

2000 years have passed and the Jews are still in that same box looking for a way out that Christ placed them in.

 

[Van]

Yes, and what does Mtt. 13:13 say?

"I speak unto them in parables they seeing see not, hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

I go back to my point of free will, they chose not to see and hear through their own self righteousness.

It wasn't the decision of Christ that they not understand, it was their own choice.

Christ was placing them in a box with only one way out, through Him.

Neither the audience nor the disciples understood the parables. But the disciples had been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. So, when Jesus explained the parable in plain language, they understood to some degree.

You keep addressing how people close their minds to the gospel, which is not at issue. The issue is the minds of the audience were not all closed, by Total Spiritual Inability, so Jesus spoke in parable.

Christ chose to speak in parable. Full Stop

If you do not understand the gospel, you do not understand Christ is the only way to avoid Hades and Gehenna.

 

[Charlie24]

Neither the audience nor the disciples understood the parables. But the disciples had been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. So, when Jesus explained the parable in plain language, they understood to some degree.

You keep addressing how people close their minds to the gospel, which is not at issue. The issue is the minds of the audience were not all closed, by Total Spiritual Inability, so Jesus spoke in parable.

Christ chose to speak in parable. Full Stop

If you do not understand the gospel, you do not understand Christ is the only way to avoid Hades and Gehenna.

One thing is for sure, we see it differently.

The arrangement had already been made for Christ die on the Cross for mans sin. It was already known to God the self-righteous Jews would reject Him and kill Him. God already knew that the Sacrifice in the Law that represented Christ as was well known to the Jews, that they would pervert that Sacrifice of Christ in self-righteousness. Therefore Christ would be rejected not by the decree of God but by the self-righteousness of perverted man.

The self-righteous would walk away from the parables not abel to see or hear in their self-righteouness, but the open hearts to the will of God could see and hear, even though in most cases it took time for them to see and hear the truth, and some seen it instantly.

It's a display of the God given free will we have recieved to determine our own way with or without God.