Early Church Dads And Reformers ...

Allan · Jan 16, 2007

Jarthur001 said:

I don't have a problem with the statements as they were wrote. Yet you have to agree, many are changing the wording to better fit their own thoughts. I did not look all of them up. I ran into a book that I could not find, and stopped looking all together after a hour. But it seems most of the statements were reworded.

I want to add this...

I also do not deny the doctrines of grace was not talked about from around 120-320ad. It was not that they talked much about free-will either. There were a small hand full that took one side on the other, but for the most part it was silent time. If you are to look at church history as a whole it is clear why this was.

I also have to agree with rippon. Gill is well trusted in Church history. Gill is more Calvinist than I, but he does seem to be true to report the facts, even when it hurts his views. Now he will add his slant, but one can read though that.

I love history, and the hardest part is seeing who lies and who does not. If one must lie, then something is wrong. If you trace back stories of some, you wonder where in the world they come up with their stuff. But if you read all the books you can, i feel the real story comes foreward.
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I agree that rewording isn't a good idea...but they were not reworded to far from the mark. I should have known better than to post such things without making sure it is exact (I agree because it can be misleading) but I had HOPED people would research it for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

I can grant that from the time ??? - to about 320 not much was specifically stated on one side or the other. But from about 300 to 320 onward we do see them. So basically what we are looking for is from Eusebius on-ward. (with the exception of course for Clement of Alexandria since his statement reveals a common thought among an at least equal portion that salvation was for ALL humanity.)

With regard to Gill. Yes he was a good church historian but one with a decided bent. No one will do a literary work without some bias and he is no exception. Especially in light of the many people we find through out biblical history who didn't hold to the Calvinistic view of limited atonement. But the early church fathers beleived its scope (Atonement) was much wider but its application narrower.

Rippon · Jan 18, 2007

Just A Beginning

John Gill was an honest man . He had a sterling reputation . He is the most gifted Baptist scholar in history . For anyone to suggest that he was reworking some quotes in his own words is ________ ( supply the appropriate adjective .

In his book : " The Cause Of God And Truth " ( a must buy for any Christian ) he devotes 95 pages to quotations of the Church Fathers . The print is tiny and the pages have two columns . The last 12 pages he summarizes his conclusions . In addition to the English translation , he quotes their original language -- sometimes Latin and sometimes Greek . ( I'll leave that out.

I will only begin here to cite only brief extracts from his first chapter " Of Predestination " .

Clemens Romanus ( A.D.69) : ... God , not willing , as the apostle Peter says , that any of his beloved ones should perish , but that all of them should come to repentance , fixed it by an unchangeable decree , that they should come to repentance ... ( p. 224 )

Justin ( A.D. 150 ) : [ He is disputing with Trypho the Jew ] ... God , out of all nations took your nation to himself , a nation unprofitable , disobedient , and unfaithful ; thereby pointing out those that are chosen out of every nation to obey his will , by Christ , whom also he calls Jacob , and names Israel ... In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your holy and prophetic writings , hoping that some of you may be found of the number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth , is left or reserved to everlasting salvation . (p.225)

Irenaeus ( A.D. 180) : Hence , having completed the number which he before determined with himself , all those who are written , or ordained unto life, shall rise again ... (p.227)

the tower of election being everywhere exalted and glorious . ( p.228 )

Tertullian (A.D.200 ) : ... That the elect may be manifested , that the reprobate may be detected ... there can be no election without reprobation .

Rippon · Jan 18, 2007

Continuing

Origenus Alexandrinus ( A.D. 230 ) : [ Commenting on Matt. 24:30 ] ... all that are loved by God the Father , and preserved in Christ Jesus . (p.230)

... to him that is foreknown and preordained to believe ... (p.231)

... their election does not arise from works , but from the purpose of God , from the will of him that calleth ; the grace of the promise is not fulfilled in the children of the flesh , but in the children of God ; that is , such , who likewise , as they , may be chosen by the purpose of God , and adopted for sons . (p.231 )

Novatianus ( A.D. 250 ) : ... he is said to be glorious in predestination , and predestination was before the foundation of the world , the order must be kept , and before him there will be a large number of men appointed to glory .

Basilius Caesariensis ( A.D.370) : Take care , how thou sayest this thing was done by chance , and this comes of its own accord ; nothing is unordained , nothing undetermined , nothing is done in vain , nothing is done rashly .

[ Regarding John 10:16 ] ... the Lord is speaking of them who from among the Gentiles , are predestined unto salvation ... who , from among the Gentiles are predestined to salvation ; that is , the church in which the true worshippers worship in spirit and in truth ... we are the nation , of whom the Lord is our God ; we are the people whom he has chosen for an inheritance for himself ; a nation truly , because we are gathered out of many nations : a people verily , because we are called in the room of a people cast away , and because many are called , and few are chosen ; he calls not him that is called , but him that is chosen , blessed ; blessed therefore is he whom he he hath chosen . ( All Basilius quotes are from page 235 )

Allan · Jan 18, 2007

I don't dispute that Mr. Gill is coping down their thoughts from something they said. It is the context of their statments I want to see. But instead you tell us what John Gill said they said. (this is hear say and not study for those who were not apart of Mr. Gills work) How about showing us where THOSE poeple actually said it. Or should we just take your and His words for it? At least I gave you places where the actaul writer stated what they said and in the context they said it when it was questioned by Jarthor01. And I appreciated his questioning questioning it because he actaully went and looked for it himself.

And it was as I said in the first. What I gave was so others can see for themselves. Give us where these comments are stated.

Rippon · Jan 18, 2007

Allan , Gill's quotations are not hearsay . You owe it to yourself to buy his book for yourself . You may come away with a whole new point of view .

At the bottom of each page in his book : " The Cause Of God And Truth " he makes the appropriate citations . However the print is even smaller than the size within the regular text . A lot of his documentation is in Latin . I am simply giving the gist of some Calvinistic statements from many Church Fathers . It happens to run counter to the contentions of your boys . I know that doesn't sit well with you , but ...

Allan · Jan 18, 2007

Rippon said:

Allan , Gill's quotations are not hearsay . You owe it to yourself to buy his book for yourself . You may come away with a whole new point of view.
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Rippon YOU NEED TO READ.
I was stating that us taking his word for it is hear-say.

At the bottom of each page in his book : " The Cause Of God And Truth " he makes the appropriate citations . However the print is even smaller than the size within the regular text . A lot of his documentation is in Latin . I am simply giving the gist of some Calvinistic statements from many Church Fathers . It happens to run counter to the contentions of your boys . I know that doesn't sit well with you , but ...
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In other words you just want everyone to take his and your word for it, right? That latin has been translated and can be found through the internet. Thankfully I have most of the Early Church fathers at home on a CD and those I don't have I either find on the internet or call my old school and connect to their digital library (SEBTS)
If you will not put the citations up then shut this thread down because there is no point in interaction. The problem is this "gist". When you set this thread up it was to contend what I placed on here concerning the early church fathers. This gist now has a spesific form to which we can now do a better investigation concerning the real veiws of early church fathers and the Atonement of Christ was made for ALL man but (as we know) it is only applied to those of faith. Did they hold to this or not... Well I have it on good authority, they did. (that authority is their own words in context)

The truth sits very well with me, but it is only the truth that does. :smilewinkgrin:

Allan · Jan 19, 2007

My bad... The one I posted here didn't have the references. So here it is:

Quotations from the Early Church Fathers

Clement of Alexandria (150-220): "Christ freely brings...salvation to the whole human race."
Paedagogus, ch. 11;
"...and supplying all the antidotes of salvation to those who are diseased. For the greatest and most regal work of God is the salvation of humanity."
Paedagogus, ch. 12

Eusebius (260-340): "It was needful that the Lamb of God should be offered for the other lambs whose nature He assumed, even for the whole human race."
Demonstratio Evangelica, ch. 10, preface;

Athanasius (293-373): "Christ the Son of God, having assumed a body like ours, because we were all exposed to death [which takes in more than the elect], gave Himself up to death for us all as a sacrifice to His Father."
On the Incarnation of the Word,

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "Do not wonder if the whole world was ransomed, for He was not a mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God."
Catacheses, 13:2;

Gregory of Nazianzen (324-389): "The sacrifice of Christ is an imperishable expiation of the whole world."
23 Oratoria 2 in Pasch., i.e., Passover;

Basil (330-379): "But one thing was found that was equivalent to all men....the holy and precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He poured out for us all."
On Ps. 49:7, 8, sec. 4;

Ambrose (340-407): "Christ suffered for all, rose again for all. But if anyone does not believe in Christ, he deprives himself of that general benefit."
Ambrose also said, "Christ came for the salvation of all, and undertook the redemption of all, inasmuch as He brought a remedy by which all might escape, although there are many who...are unwilling to be healed."
On Ps. 118, Sermon 8

Augustine (354-430): Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are also clear statements in Augustine's writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example: "The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price: what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?"
He also stated, "The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of all sins."
Serm. cxxx, part 2

Cyril of Alexandria (376-444): "The death of one flesh is sufficient for the ransom of the whole human race, for it belonged to the Logos, begotten of God the Father."
Oratorio de Recta Fide, no. 2, sec. 7

Prosper (a friend and disciple of Augustine who died in 463): "As far as relates to the magnitude and virtue of the price, and to the one cause of the human race, the blood of Christ is the redemption of the whole world: but those who pass through this life without the faith of Christ, and the sacrament of regeneration, do not partake of the redemption."
Prosper also said, "The Savior is most rightly said to have been crucified for the redemption of the whole world."
Prospor then said yet again, "Although the blood of Christ be the ransom of the whole world, yet they are excluded from its benefit, who, being delighted with their captivity, are unwilling to be redeemed by it."
Answer to Vincentius
the second and third quotation:
Reply to Capitula Gallorum, no. 9,

Quotations from the Reformers of the 16th Century
Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."
Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians;

Philip Melanchton (1497-1560): "It is necessary to know that the Gospel is a universal promise, that is, that reconciliation is offered and promised to all mankind. It is necessary to hold that this promise is universal, in opposition to any dangerous imaginations on predestination, lest we should reason this promise pertains to a few others and ourselves. But we declare that the promise of the Gospel is universal. And to this are brought those universal expressions which are used constantly in the Scriptures."
Melanchthon, Common-places

Other people involved to some degree in the Reformation who held to unlimited atonement include: Hugh Latimer, Myles Coverdale, Thomas Cranmer, Wolfgang Musculus, Henry Bullinger, Benedict Aretius, Thomas Becon, Jerome Zanchius, David Paraeus, and John Calvin.
For documentation, see Douty, pp. 139–41.

Quotations from Other Luminaries from Recent Church History
Philip Schaff: "His saving grace flows and overflows to all and for all, on the simple condition of faith....If, by the grace of God, I could convert a single skeptic to a childlike faith in Him who lived and died for me and for all, I would feel that I had not lived in vain."

B. F. Westcott: "Potentially, the work of Christ extends to the whole world." And "the love of God is without limit on His part, but to appropriate the blessing of love, man must fulfill the necessary condition of faith."
B. F. Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John

A. T. Robertson: [The word "world" in John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world" - means] "the whole cosmos of men, including the Gentiles, the whole human race," and adds that "this universal aspect of God's love appears also in II Cor. 5:19; Rom. 5:8."
A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament

Tidbits
The 6th council in Constantinople (680-681) declared, "Wherefore we confess two wills and two operations, concurring most fitly in him for the salvation of the human race."

The reformers, and certainly the children of the reformers, were not united on this matter. It is, of course, no secret to the student of the Reformation that the Lutheran branch almost without exception embraced the unlimited view. "But that Luther, Melanchthon, Osiander, Brentius, Oecoiampadius, Zwinglius and Bucer held the doctrine of a general atonement...

Thus also, it was with their immediate successors, as the language of the Psalgrave Confession testifies.... 'Of the power and death of Christ, believe we,' say these German Christians, that the death of Christ (whilst he being not a bare man, but the Son of God, died,) is a full, all sufficient payment, not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. . . [James Richards, Lectures on Mental Philosophy and Theology (New York: M. W. Dodd, 1846) p. 304]

The Heidelberg Catechism (1563) of the German Reformed Church in answer to the thirty-seventh question, "What dost thou understand by the word Suffered?" has this answer: "That all the time he lived on earth, but especially at the end of his life, he bore, in body and soul, the wrath of God against the of the whole human race...."[pg 8]

John Calvins Commentaries:
(During the later years of his life Calvin wrote his commentaries, which reveal some development of thought, and in which he avoided some of the extremes found in the Institutes.)
John 3:16, he said: ". . . The Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish.''11 Concerning the term whosoever in the same verse, he said: "And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the impact of the term world, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favour of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.''

Such an understanding of this verse and the words employed in it is certainly not in keeping with many who claim to be Calvinists, as the following pages will reveal. Another illustration of Calvin's view is to be found in his explanation of:

Matthew 26:28. ". . .This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins [italics mine]." He says: "Under the name of many he designates not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"

In fact it would be better held that Limited atonement was not popular UNTIL the Synod of Dort.

Now since this is about irresistable grace, for reasons listed above and scriptures that stand by them (historical stances and scriptural stance) I maintain that it can not be irresistable if Christ died for ALL.

Lastly:
Romans 5:18 says: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Regarding this verse, John Calvin says: "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propoundable to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all [i.e., in their experience]; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him."

Regarding the two occurrences of the phrase "all men," E. H. Gifford comments: "The words all men [in v. 18] must have the same extent in both clauses."
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Rippon · Jan 23, 2007

Continuing Under The Head Of Predestination

Gregorius Nazianzenzenus ( A.Ad. 370) : God does not take pleasure in the multitude ; thou numberest myriadfs , but God , those that are to be saved ; thou the unmeasurable dust ; but the vessels of election . ( p.236)

Hilarius Diaconus ( A. D. 380 ) : For unbelievers we must not very much grieve , because they are not predestined unto life ; for the prescience of God has , of old , decreed , that they are not to be saved . ( p. 237)

Ambrosius Mediolanensis ( A.D. 380) : ... all men can hear , yet all cannot perceive with their ears , only the elect of God : therefore the Saviour says , He that hath ears to hear -- all men have not those ears .(pgs.237,238)

Hieronymus ( A.D.390) : ... for the vessels of mercy are not only the people of the Gentiles , but likewise those those among the Jews who would believe , and are made one people of believers ; hence it appears , that , not nations are chosen , but the wills of men . (p.239)

Whiles he was yet in Rebecca's womb , he supplanted his brother Essau , not truly by his own strength , but by the mercy of God , who knows and loves those whom he hath predestined .(p.240)

Allan · Jan 23, 2007

Are you citing pages from Gills book??

If so, please post WHERE they actually are, as in where can I go to see their actual writtings.

Allan · Jan 23, 2007

Hilarius Diaconus ( A. D. 380 ) : For unbelievers we must not very much grieve , because they are not predestined unto life ; for the prescience of God has , of old , decreed , that they are not to be saved . ( p. 237)
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You actually quoted someone who is not in line with your opinions.

Prscience is looking forward to see what will be. This is actually a standard Arminian view. And All the Non-Cals agree with it. God knows who will be saved and those who will not is because they choose not to accept the truth God has revealed. So we should not very much grieve for they have chosen eternal seperation from God.

But the Name I must admit fits this accidental incertion, for it was 'Hilarius'. :laugh:

Allan · Jan 23, 2007

Hieronymus ( A.D.390) : ... for the vessels of mercy are not only the people of the Gentiles , but likewise those those among the Jews who would believe , and are made one people of believers ; hence it appears , that , not nations are chosen , but the wills of men . (p.239)
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I would have to see the context of this quote because it appears to also correspond to the Non-Cal veiw.

I say that because he states at the end that (apparently) God chooses according to the will of men and not in a national sense.

Allan · Jan 23, 2007

One last thing, ALL the verses that I quote concern Early Church Fathers and their (consistant) view with Unlimited Atonement.

You are beginning to go off into election and other fields and that have nothing to do with what you started off wanting to refute.

Rippon · Jan 23, 2007

I had said that I was going to quote some early Church Fathers who had Calvinistic sentiments . In the early years ( before P&A went at it ) it was not a controverted point . Therefore some of their statements are not as exacting as could be wished . But then again , ( as I pointed out earlier ) the matter of the Trinity and the two natures of Christ were not definitively hashed-out in the early years either . It takes controversy to hammer-out the biblical basis of doctrines .

Oh , Hieronymus was saying that God doesn't choose nations for salvation -- but subdues the wills of individuals .

Allan · Jan 23, 2007

Rippon said:

Oh , Hieronymus was saying that God doesn't choose nations for salvation -- but subdues the wills of individuals .
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Mind showing where this is found.

BTW- Election is NOT a Calvinistic sentiment as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

Atonement isn't Calvinistic as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

Depravity isn't Calvinistic as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

Perseverence if the saints isn't Calvinistic as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

Grace also isn't Calvinistic as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

So if you are going to quote them it must be in the defining context of the Calvinistic view. However YOU set up this thread against that which I posted and IT was against early church father and continuing fathers held to unlimited atonement. with regard to the early church fathers hold to your view is without question a great assumption concerning many of their writing that imply and at time state the direct opposite but, like you said, there isn't ENOUGH information to establish a definate established view of those views.

Rippon · Jan 26, 2007

Continuing In Gill's Book ...

... citing Early Church Fathers . Chapter 2 : Of Redemption .

Origines Alexandrinus ( A.D.230 ) : ... Christ being crucified for the world that believes ... (p.246)

Christ took upon him the sins of the people of those that believe in him . (p.247)

[ Regarding Matt. 20:21] And to give his life a ransom for many --- for the many that believed on him . (p.247)

Cyprian ( A.D. 250) : this is our God ; that is not the God of all , but of the faithful and believers . ( p.247,248)

Eusebius Pamphilus Caesariensis ( A.D. 330) : to them only who are taken by Christ out of all nations , can the blessing made to Abraham concerning all nations agree . (p.250)

Mararius Egyptius ( A.D.350) : He shall remain in the sight of God forever , having already taken all whom he hath redeemed to be kings of heaven , and co-heirs of eternity , delivering them as the kingdom to God the Father . ( p. 253,254 )

Basilius Caesariensis ( A.D. 370) : God is not the God of all , but of them who are joined to him in love , as the God of abraham , the God of Isaac , and the God of Jacob ; for if he was the God of all , he would have given them a testimony as something very excellent . (p. 254)

Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus ( A.D. 370) :You have , the twelve apostles witnesses of the cross , and the habitable earth , and the world of men that believe in him was crucified . ( p.255, 256 )

the church of the whole world ( p. 256 )

Gregorius Nazianenus ( A.D. 370) : thy anger is stirred up against the sheep of thy pasture ; remember thy congregation which thou hast possessed from the beginning , which thou hast purchased by the sufferings of thine only begotten Word . (p.256)

We speak concerning the church for whom Christ died . ( p.256 )

Allan · Jan 28, 2007

Rippon said:

... citing Early Church Fathers . Chapter 2 : Of Redemption .

Origines Alexandrinus ( A.D.230 ) : ... Christ being crucified for the world that believes ... (p.246)

Christ took upon him the sins of the people of those that believe in him . (p.247)

[ Regarding Matt. 20:21] And to give his life a ransom for many --- for the many that believed on him . (p.247)

Cyprian ( A.D. 250) : this is our God ; that is not the God of all , but of the faithful and believers . ( p.247,248)

Eusebius Pamphilus Caesariensis ( A.D. 330) : to them only who are taken by Christ out of all nations , can the blessing made to Abraham concerning all nations agree . (p.250)

Mararius Egyptius ( A.D.350) : He shall remain in the sight of God forever , having already taken all whom he hath redeemed to be kings of heaven , and co-heirs of eternity , delivering them as the kingdom to God the Father . ( p. 253,254 )

Basilius Caesariensis ( A.D. 370) : God is not the God of all , but of them who are joined to him in love , as the God of abraham , the God of Isaac , and the God of Jacob ; for if he was the God of all , he would have given them a testimony as something very excellent . (p. 254)

Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus ( A.D. 370) :You have , the twelve apostles witnesses of the cross , and the habitable earth , and the world of men that believe in him was crucified . ( p.255, 256 )

the church of the whole world ( p. 256 )

Gregorius Nazianenus ( A.D. 370) : thy anger is stirred up against the sheep of thy pasture ; remember thy congregation which thou hast possessed from the beginning , which thou hast purchased by the sufferings of thine only begotten Word . (p.256)

We speak concerning the church for whom Christ died . ( p.256 )
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I have little to no time anymore so I appologize for not responding sooner.

**sigh** You just don't get it do you Rippon.

I don't care what Gill says they say and nor should anyone else for that matter. I want to see where Gill got his information. I look at what the men in question themselves state in THEIR OWN WRITINGS. For all I know (though I do doubt) is that Gill is quoting what another man was said to be quoting (which could be a quote from another mans supposed quote). I don't want hear say (one man saying what one man said) I want to know where Gill got his information with regard to each statement from each author. You could afford the same courtisy that I gave when I did this all others (including you) to be able to look for themselves at the early church fathers writtings to see for themselves what was actaully stated. I did this approximately 9 posts back. If nothing else it will get people to not only find things for themselves and not take someone elses word for it (that is a sad faith indeed) but that they might research of their own accord and come to their own conclusions in the matter by seeing how others veiwed certain things in the early churches.

Anyway, You have not dispoved that any of the quotes I have placed with regard to the View of Unlimited Atonement held by the vast majority of Early Church Fathers can not be denied. That was the whole intent of this thread when it began was it not?

Your studies in this are coming up very shallow (This is not ment to be derogitive so please don't take it that way). Your previous posts of Gill concerning 'Redemption' DO NOT disprove in ANY WAY Unlimited Atonement. All Non-Cals agree the atonement is applied to those who believe. And agree as well that God is not the God of all men but specifically to those who have believed. Maybe you beginning to see the light

Allan · Jan 28, 2007

Just to show you some differences:

Rippon said:

... citing Early Church Fathers . Chapter 2 : Of Redemption .

Eusebius Pamphilus Caesariensis ( A.D. 330) : to them only who are taken by Christ out of all nations , can the blessing made to Abraham concerning all nations agree . (p.250)
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Eusebius (260-340): "It was needful that the Lamb of God should be offered for the other lambs whose nature He assumed, even for the whole human race."
Demonstratio Evangelica, ch. 10, preface;
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Basilius Caesariensis ( A.D. 370) : God is not the God of all , but of them who are joined to him in love , as the God of abraham , the God of Isaac , and the God of Jacob ; for if he was the God of all , he would have given them a testimony as something very excellent . (p. 254)
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Basil (330-379): "But one thing was found that was equivalent to all men....the holy and precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He poured out for us all."
On Ps. 49:7, 8, sec. 4;
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Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus ( A.D. 370) :You have , the twelve apostles witnesses of the cross , and the habitable earth , and the world of men that believe in him was crucified . ( p.255, 256 )

the church of the whole world ( p. 256 )
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Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "Do not wonder if the whole world was ransomed, for He was not a mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God."
Catacheses, 13:2; - Context in this work of his, is without
question speaking to the whole world in regards to ALL of mankind.
P.s. - the above statement you post, in no way shows Cyril held to a limited atonement but who the witness are to Him being crusified. So I fail to see the point of this quote by even Gill.
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Gregorius Nazianenus ( A.D. 370) : thy anger is stirred up against the sheep of thy pasture ; remember thy congregation which thou hast possessed from the beginning , which thou hast purchased by the sufferings of thine only begotten Word . (p.256)

We speak concerning the church for whom Christ died . ( p.256 )
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Gregory of Nazianzen (324-389): "The sacrifice of Christ is an imperishable expiation of the whole world." Regarding all mankind in context of his writing.
23 Oratoria 2 in Pasch., i.e., Passover;
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This is what I mean; These show the redeption is only applied to those who believe but Gills quotes are not about the extent of atonement, just the Redeeming aspect to whom has received it. Non-Cals agree that those Redeemed are done so because of Christs shedding of blood and death as God the Father poured out all His wrath on Christ Jesus.

My quotes are to the extent of the Atonement. This is what you will have a hard time extracting beyond the Unlimited Atonement view. But I will say that what was offered to the world is limited only to the elect. Is this not the parallel to your Common grace (offered to the world) as opposed to effectuous (sp?) grace (only to the elect). If God did not make atonement available for the would then that which God would offer in common grace is either deciet or an out right lie to them. Agreed?

Rippon · Jan 28, 2007

I don't know Allan , statements like the following lead me to believe many of the Church Fathers were indeed Pauline in their convictions .

preordained to believe

vessels of election

loves those whom He hath predestined

unbelievers are not predestined unto life

etc. , etc. , etc.

When Gregory of Nazianzen said " the congregation which thou hast possessed from the beginning" -- I can't understand the construction which you place on his writings . He is speaking of the sheep for whom Christ died .

The same applies to Cryil of Jerusalem . When you see the words " whole world " its like you make a bee-line to your idea that he must be referring to each and everyone who has , is , and shall live . But he is referencing the world of the elect .

You commented on "your common grace" . I do not believe in common grace . Grace refers only to Christ's work of salvation only . The rain and sunshine that fall on the saved and wicked alike is not biblical grace .

Do you believe that any of Christ's blood was wasted ? I don't . He died specifically for the ones He determined to save and no one else . So when you try and differentiate between the extent of the atonement and "just the redeeming aspect" I don't follow . He atoned ,for the sins -- that is redeemed some of the human race --- the elect . The presentation of the gospel has been given to a minority of all people throughout history . Most have never heard the gospel . I object to the use of the word "offer" . It causes much confusion . When that word was used in the in the Council of Dort by Reformed men it did not have the modern connotation attached to it .

Allan · Jan 29, 2007

Rippon said:

I don't know Allan , statements like the following lead me to believe many of the Church Fathers were indeed Pauline in their convictions .

preordained to believe
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None of your sectioned quotes ever makes mention of this. Which one is that?
And BTW - The Non-Cals are Pauline in their doctrine just as the Calvinists are, and it is has never been proven otherwise. :smilewinkgrin:

vessels of election

loves those whom He hath predestined
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As I stated, these do not hold only to the relm of Calvinistic thought. These are the same terms and wordings used by the Non-Cals as well. However, once again I do not see any mention of your last parsed quote (loves those whom He hath predestined) originated. Did I miss that one too??

unbelievers are not predestined unto life
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Again, this one is not in your notable quotes. WHere are you getting these??

When Gregory of Nazianzen said " the congregation which thou hast possessed from the beginning" -- I can't understand the construction which you place on his writings . He is speaking of the sheep for whom Christ died .
Click to expand...

You have to look up that actual writing to see the context of that passage. As I stated below it; it can be found: 23 Oratoria 2 in Pasch., i.e., Passover; . It is not my costruct but exactly what he states. The 'whole world' is just that, the whole of mankind. But you still have not stated what documents your quotes originate from that I may see their contexts.

The same applies to Cryil of Jerusalem . When you see the words " whole world " its like you make a bee-line to your idea that he must be referring to each and everyone who has , is , and shall live . But he is referencing the world of the elect .
Click to expand...

Nothing in his writtings EVER insinuates such. Again, you can look back at what he actually wrote and see the context to better grasp that we he states the 'whole world' that is exactly what he ment, ALL of mankind. BTW - again, where did this quote you gave from Gill originate?

You commented on "your common grace" . I do not believe in common grace . Grace refers only to Christ's work of salvation only . The rain and sunshine that fall on the saved and wicked alike is not biblical grace .
Click to expand...

THANK YOU!! It is about time someone other than me said that.

Do you believe that any of Christ's blood was wasted ? I don't . He died specifically for the ones He determined to save and no one else . So when you try and differentiate between the extent of the atonement and "just the redeeming aspect" I don't follow . He atoned ,for the sins -- that is redeemed some of the human race --- the elect . The presentation of the gospel has been given to a minority of all people throughout history . Most have never heard the gospel . I object to the use of the word "offer" . It causes much confusion . When that word was used in the in the Council of Dort by Reformed men it did not have the modern connotation attached to it .
Click to expand...

To the embolded - Have you ever studied the sacrifice of atonement? I'm sure you most likely have, but what most people skin over it a very important part of that atonement. Only a PORTION of the blood as a whole was used (applied to the horns - sybolizings Gods power to save through the blood). But what is over looked is what the priests did with the rest of the blood that was given but not used or applied. Scripture states it was poured out at the base of the alter. It was literally trampled under foot. Now if you look that interesting phrase (...trampled or [KJV] trodden under foot) you will find it in Hebrews speaking about Christs sacrifice:

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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I'm not going to do the whole study of it because that is not what we are speaking of anyway... I just got caught up on a rabbit trail.

Rippon · Jan 29, 2007

Predestined unto salvation

preordained to believe

Both of the above are from Origenus Alexandrinus in post #23

vessels of election - Gregory of Nazianzen in post #1

loves those whom he hath predestined --Hieronymus in post #28

we are the people whom He hath chosen for an inheritance for Himself -- Basil , in post #2

Unbelievers ... God has , of old , decreed , that they are not to be saved -- Hilarius Diaconus , in post #28

Back to the subject of Gregory of Nazianzen . He was the one who said " the congregation which thou hast purchased from the beginning " . How can his statement be so construed that that phrase means everyone was purchased ? It is specifically referring to the sheep of His fold that Christ bought with His own blood . No one outside the church is included .

Dr. William Cunningham wrote a book called " Historical Theology " . In the 7th chapter about the church of the 1st 2 centuries . Section 1 concerns the Doctrines of Grace .

... it will scarcely be disputed that the testimony of the early primitive church is as favourable to the Calvinistic pecularities , as they are often called , of predestination and perseverance , as to any of the other doctrines commonly designated ... (p.179)

He who sees Augustinian or Calvinistic doctrines clearly and explicitly taught in the Bible , will have no difficulty in seeing also plain traces of them at least in the works of the apostolic fathers ; and he who can pervert the statements of Scripture into an anti-Calvinistic sense , may , by the same process , and with equal ease , distort the apostolic fathers .(p.180)

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