Early church fathers and free will

[Winman]

Why is it that the vast majority of early church fathers before Augustine came along believed that unregenerate man possessed a free will?

JUSTIN MARTYR c.100-165 A.D.

"But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand.

IRENAEUS of Gaul c.130-200. Against Heresies XXXVII

"This expression, 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,' set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . ."

"If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God."

ATHENAGORAS of Athens (2nd century). Embassy for Christians XXIV

"Just as with men who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless), so is it among the angels"

THEOPHILUS of Antioch (2nd century). To Autolycus XXVII

"For God made man free, and with power over himself . . . now God vouchsafes to him as a gift through His own philanthropy and pity, when men obey Him. For as man, disobeying, drew death on himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting."

TATIAN of Syria (flourished late 2nd century). Address XI

"Why are you 'fated' to grasp at things often, and often to die? Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature. We were not created to die, but we die by our own fault. Our free-will has destroyed us; we who were free have become slaves; we have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God; we ourselves have manifested wickedness; but we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it."

BARDAISAN of Syria c.154-222. Fragments

" 'How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation?'

if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him . . . And how, in that case, would a man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman . . . they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures."

CLEMENT of Alexandria c.150-215. Stromata Bk ii ch. 4

"But we, who have heard by the Scriptures that self-determining choice and refusal have been given by the Lord to men, rest in the infallible criterion of faith, manifesting a willing spirit, since we have chosen life and believe God through His voice."

Stromata Bk iv ch. 12

"But nothing is without the will of the Lord of the universe. It remains to say that such things happen without the prevention of God; for this alone saves both the providence and the goodness of God. We must not therefore think that He actively produces afflictions (far be it that we should think this!); but we must be persuaded that He does not prevent those that cause them, but overrules for good the crimes of His enemies."

TERTULLIAN of Carthage c.155-225 Against Marcion Book II ch.5I

find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God's image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature . . .

-you will find that when He sets before man good and evil, life and death, that the entire course of discipline is arranged in precepts by God's calling men from sin, and threatening and exhorting them; and by this on no other ground than that man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.

. . . Since therefore, both the goodness and purpose of God are discovered in the gift to man of freedom in his will . . ."

NOVATIAN of Rome c.200-258. On the Trinity ch 1

"He also placed man at the head of the world, and man, too, made in the image of God, to whom He imparted mind, and reason, and foresight, that he might imitate God; and although the first elements of his body were earthly, yet the substance was inspired by a heavenly and divine breathing. And when He had given him all things for his service, He willed that he alone should be free. And lest, again, and unbounded freedom should fall into peril, He laid down a command, in which man was taught that there was no evil in the fruit of the tree; but he was forewarned that evil would arise if perchance he should exercise his freewill in contempt of the law that was given."


Quotes from God's Strategy in Human History by Roger T Forster & V Paul Marston

More on 2nd post

 

[Winman]

Continued from first post

ORIGEN c.185-254. De Principiis Preface

"Now it ought to be known that the holy apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, delivered themselves with the utmost clearness on certain points which they believed to be necessary to everyone . . . This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition."

De principiis Bk 3 ch. 1

"There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will."

METHODIUS of Olympus c.260-martyred 311. The Banquet of the Ten Virgins xvi

"Now those who decide that man is not possessed of free-will, and affirm that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate . . . are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils."

Concerning Free-will

"I say that man was made with free-will, not as if there were already existing some evil, which he had the power of choosing if he wished . . . but that the power of obeying and disobeying God is the only cause."

ARCHELAUS

The Disputation with Manes

"For all creatures that God made, He made very good, and He gave to every individual the sense of free-will in accordance with which standard He also instituted the law of judgment. To sin is ours, and that we sin not is God's gift, as our will is constituted to choose either to sin or not to sin."

ARNOBIUS of Sicca c.253-327

Against the Heathen: 64

"I reply: does not He free all alike who invites all alike? Or does He thrust back or repel any one from the kindness of the Supreme who gives to all alike the power of coming to Him? To all, He says, the fountain of life is open, and no one is hindered or kept back from drinking . . . "

65

"Nay, my opponent says, if God is powerful, merciful, willing to save us, let Him change our dispositions, and compel us to trust in His promises. This then, is violence, not kindness nor the bounty of the Supreme God, but a childish and vain strife in seeking to get the mastery. For what is so unjust as to force men who are reluctant and unworthy, to reverse their inclinations; to impress forcibly on their minds what they are unwilling to receive, and shrink from . . ."

CYRIL of Jerusalem c. 312-386

Lecture IV

18: "Know also that thou hast a soul self governed, the noblest work of God, made after the image of its Creator, immortal because of God that gives it immortality, a living being rational, imperishable, because of Him that bestowed these gifts: having free power to do what it willeth."

20: "There is not a class of souls sinning by nature and a class of souls practising righteousness by nature; but both act from choice, the substance of their souls being of one kind only and alike in all."

21: "The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator of necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature."

GREGORY of Nyssa c.335-395. On Virginity (368/3G8) ch. XII

"Being the image and the likeness . . . of the Power which rules all things, man kept also in the matter of a free-will this likeness to Him whose will is over all."

JEROME c.347-420. Letters CXXXIII

"It is in vain that you misrepresent me and try to convince the ignorant that I condemn free-will. Let him who condemns it be himself condemned. We have been created endowed with free-will; still it is not this which distinguishes us from the brutes. For human free-will, as I said, depends upon the help of God and needs His aid moment by moment, a thing which you and yours do not choose to admit. Your position is that once a man has free-will he no longer needs the help of God. It is true that freedom of the will brings with it freedom of decision. Still man does not act immediately on his free-will but requires God's aid who Himself needs no aid."

Against the Pelagians Book III, 10

"But when we are concerned with grace and mercy, free-will is in part void; in part, I say, for so much depends upon it, that we wish and desire, and give assent to the course we choose. But it depends on God whether we have the power in His strength and with His help to perform what we desire, and to bring to effect our toil and effort."

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM 347-407. On Hebrews, Homily 12

"All is in God's power, but so that our free-will is not lost . . . It depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help . . . It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God's to perfect and bring to the end."

Quotes from God's Strategy in Human History by Roger T Forster & V Paul Marston

 

[Cypress]

Pretty good company to be in! They were probably a bit less challenged with the intent of the original languages than we are today as well.

 

[Skandelon]

Thanks for posting this Winman. Very interesting. I think it is also worth noting that not only is the "Calvinistic" view of scripture not introduced until Augustine, but also the Eastern Orthodox Church sided with Cassian rejecting Augustine's views. The Western Church sided with Augustine who was obviously a huge influence on Luther and Calvin and the reason this controversy still rages on; whereas its virtually non-existant in Eastern Orthodoxy. (though they have their own issues)

These men are in no way infallible and these quotes prove nothing definitive about this debate, but they are interesting and revealing. The one measure of support they do provide is that those who were discipled by the disciples of the original apostles, didn't seem to support a Calvinistic interpretation of the text. That says something whether modern day Calvinists will admit it or not.

 

[Andy T.]

What was the predominat view among the Early Church Fathers on baptism? And will that shed light on what the correct view of baptism is?

 

[Skandelon]

What was the predominat view among the Early Church Fathers on baptism? And will that shed light on what the correct view of baptism is?

What was Augustine's, Luther's and Calvin's view of Baptism? Will that help?

 

[pinoybaptist]

AndyT asked a plain and simple question.
Why can't he be given a fair and simple answer.

As for the quotes ?
winman has proven himself in the past to pick statements and paragraphs that represents his view and misrepresents the entire document, so why should one jump at it ?

 

[Andy T.]

What was Augustine's, Luther's and Calvin's view of Baptism? Will that help?

I'm not the one making the genetic argument, like you all are doing. Since all these Church Fathers were right about free will, they all must be right about baptism, too - since they were not that far removed from the Apostles. So what was their view on baptism?

 

[Allan]

What was the predominat view among the Early Church Fathers on baptism? And will that shed light on what the correct view of baptism is?

So which era of the early church fathers are you refering to?

And with that in mind, what type of baptism are you refering to.
Salvation baptism? They were all of the same mind

Infant baptism? None prior to Augustine believed it saved an infant or child, nor was it something the church generally practiced prior to the joining of the Church and state (again back to Augustine). This from Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church; chapter IX under Baptism:

True, the New Testament contains no express command to baptize infants; such a command would not agree with the free spirit of the gospel. Nor was there any compulsory or general infant baptism before the union of church and state; Constantine, the first Christian emperor, delayed his baptism till his deathbed (as many now delay their repentance); and even after Constantine there were examples of eminent teachers, as Gregory Nazianzen, Augustin, Chrysostom, who were not baptized before their conversion in early manhood, although they had Christian mothers.

...The church has always held the principle that the mere want [or lack] of the sacrament does not condemn, but only the contempt. Otherwise all unbaptized infants that die in infancy would be lost. This horrible doctrine was indeed inferred by St. Augustin and the Roman church, from the supposed absolute necessity of baptism, but is in direct conflict with the spirit of the gospel and Christ’s treatment of children, to whom belongs the kingdom of heaven...

Augstine was 4th almost 5th Century early church father.

The typical or mainline view of Baptism was as follows from the same source:

The first administration of this sacrament in its full Christian sense took place on the birthday of the church, after the first independent preaching of the apostles. The baptism of John was more of a negative sort, and only preparatory to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. In theory Christian baptism is preceded by conversion, that is the human act of turning from sin to God in repentance and faith, and followed by regeneration, that is the divine act of forgiveness of sin and inward cleansing and renewal. Yet in practice the outward sign and inward state and effect do not always coincide; in Simon Magus we have an example of the baptism of water without that of the Spirit, and in Cornelius an example of the communication of the Spirit before the application of the water. In the case of infants, conversion, as a conscious act of the will, is impossible and unnecessary. In adults the solemn ordinance was preceded by the preaching of the gospel, or a brief instruction in its main facts, and then followed by more thorough inculcation of the apostolic doctrine. ...

 

[Andy T.]

Huh, so the Early Church Fathers (the ones Winman quoted) held to Believer's Baptism like we Baptists do? Learn something new every day. Thanks, Allan.

 

[Andy T.]

Actually, I think most Calvinists could essentially agree with these quotes from Jerome posted above:

JEROME c.347-420. Letters CXXXIII

"It is in vain that you misrepresent me and try to convince the ignorant that I condemn free-will. Let him who condemns it be himself condemned. We have been created endowed with free-will; still it is not this which distinguishes us from the brutes. For human free-will, as I said, depends upon the help of God and needs His aid moment by moment, a thing which you and yours do not choose to admit. Your position is that once a man has free-will he no longer needs the help of God. It is true that freedom of the will brings with it freedom of decision. Still man does not act immediately on his free-will but requires God's aid who Himself needs no aid."

Against the Pelagians Book III, 10

"But when we are concerned with grace and mercy, free-will is in part void; in part, I say, for so much depends upon it, that we wish and desire, and give assent to the course we choose. But it depends on God whether we have the power in His strength and with His help to perform what we desire, and to bring to effect our toil and effort."


Yay! We have a Church Father who agrees with us!

 

[Andy T.]

On the flip side, this quote by Chrysostom sounds like works righteouness and is almost insulting to God that He gets to "add" His part. In fact, the bolded parts are essentially Pelagian views.

"All is in God's power, but so that our free-will is not lost . . . It depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help . . . It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God's to perfect and bring to the end."

 

[Allan]

"All is in God's power, but so that our free-will is not lost . . . It depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help . . . It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God's to perfect and bring to the end."

LOL.. That is not and has nothing to do with Pelagianism but then again making a judgment call on anything that is chopped up isn't very smart. THough I do understand what you mean
Pelagiansim states very plainly that we come to God apart from any influence or act of God, this is not what he has in mind. However Faith preceding regeneration isn't Pelagainism anymore than Determinism is the same as Fatalism. In any case here is the whole of the work for context:

Hebrews 7:8-10
Hebrews 7:8 “And here men that die receive tithes: but there he of whom it is testified that he lives.” But lest we should say, Tell us, why are you going so far back? He says, Hebrews 7:9 “And as I may so say” (and he did well in softening it) “Levi also who receives tithes payed tithes in Abraham.” How? Hebrews 7:10 “For he was yet in his loins when Melchisedec met him,” i.e. Levi was in him, although he was not yet born. And he said not the Levites but Levi.

Have you seen the superiority? Have you seen how great is the interval between Abraham and Melchisedec, who bears the type of our High Priest? And he shows that the superiority had been caused by authority, not necessity. For the one paid the tithe, which indicates the priest: the other gave the blessing, which indicates the superior. This superiority passes on also to the descendants.

In a marvelous and triumphant way he cast out the Jewish [system]. On this account he said, “You have become dull,” Hebrews 5:12, because he wished to lay these foundations, that they might not start away. Such is the wisdom of Paul, first preparing them well, he so leads them into what he wishes. For the human race is hard to persuade, and needs much attention, even more than plants. Since in that case there is [only] the nature of material bodies, and earth, which yields to the hands of the husbandmen: but in this there is will, which is liable to many alterations, and now prefers this, now that. For it quickly turns to evil.

5. Wherefore we ought always to “guard” ourselves, lest at any time we should fall asleep. For “Lo” (it is said) “he that keeps Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep” Psalm 121:4, and “Do not suffer your foot to be moved.” Psalm 121:3 He did not say, 'be not moved' but “do not thou suffer,” etc. The suffering depends then on ourselves, and not on any other. For if we will stand “steadfast and unmoveable” 1 Corinthians 15:58, we shall not be shaken.

What then? Does nothing depend on God? All indeed depends on God, but not so that our free-will is hindered. 'If then it depend on God,' (one says), 'why does He blame us?' On this account I said, 'so that our free-will is not hindered.' It depends then on us, and on Him. For we must first choose the good; and then He leads us to His own. He does not anticipate our choice, lest our free-will should be outraged. But when we have chosen, then great is the assistance he brings to us.

How is it then that Paul says, “not of him that wills,” if it depend on ourselves also “nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.” Romans 9:16

In the first place, he did not introduce it as his own opinion, but inferred it from what was before him and from what had been put forward [in the discussion]. For after saying, “It is written, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion” Romans 9:15, he says, “It follows then that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.” “You will say then unto me, why does He yet find fault?” Romans 9:16-19

And secondly the other explanation may be given, that he speaks of all as His, whose the greater part is. For it is ours to choose and to wish; but God's to complete and to bring to an end. Since therefore the greater part is of Him, he says all is of Him, speaking according to the custom of men. For so we ourselves also do. I mean for instance: we see a house well built, and we say the whole is the Architect's [doing], and yet certainly it is not all his, but the workmen's also, and the owner's, who supplies the materials, and many others', but nevertheless since he contributed the greatest share, we call the whole his. So then [it is] in this case also. Again, with respect to a number of people, where the many are, we say All are: where few, nobody. So also Paul says, “not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.”

And herein he establishes two great truths: one, that we should not be lifted up: even should you run (he would say), even should you be very earnest, do not consider that the well doing is your own. For if you obtain not the impulse that is from above, all is to no purpose. Nevertheless that you will attain that which thou earnestly strivest after is very evident; so long as you run, so long as you will.

He did not then assert this, that we run in vain, but that, if we think the whole to be our own, if we do not assign the greater part to God, we run in vain. For neither has God willed that the whole should be His, lest He should appear to be crowning us without cause: nor again our's, lest we should fall away to pride. For if when we have the smaller [share], we think much of ourselves, what should we do if the whole depended on us?

6. Indeed God has done away many things for the purpose of cutting away our boastfulness, and still there is the high hand. With how many afflictions has He encompassed us, so as to cut away our proud spirit! With how many wild beasts has He encircled us! For indeed when some say, 'why is this?' 'Of what use is this?' They utter these things against the will of God. He has placed you in the midst of so great fear, and yet not even so are you lowly-minded; but if you ever attain a little success, you reach to Heaven itself in pride.

For this cause [come] rapid changes and reverses; and yet not even so are we instructed. For this cause are there continual and untimely deaths, but are minded as if we were immortal, as if we should never die. We plunder, we over-reach, as though we were never to give account. We build as if we were to abide here always. And not even the word of God daily sounded into our ears, nor the events themselves instruct us. Not a day, not an hour can be mentioned, in which we may not see continual funerals. But all in vain: and nothing reaches our hardness [of heart]: nor are we even able to become better by the calamities of others; or rather, we are not willing. When we ourselves only are afflicted, then we are subdued, and yet if God take off His hand, we again lift up our hand: no one considers what is proper for man, no one despises the things on earth; no one looks to Heaven. But as swine turn their heads downwards, stooping towards their belly, wallowing in the mire; so too the great body of mankind defile themselves with the most intolerable filth, without being conscious of it.

7. For better were it to be defiled with unclean mud than with sins; for he who is defiled with the one, washes it off in a little time, and becomes like one who had never from the first fallen into that slough; but he who has fallen into the deep pit of sin has contracted a defilement that is not cleansed by water, but needs long time, and strict repentance, and tears and lamentations, and more wailing, and that more fervent, than we show over the dearest friends. For this defilement attaches to us from without, wherefore we also speedily put it away; but the other is generated from within, wherefore also we wash it off with difficulty, and cleanse ourselves from it. “For from the heart” (it is said) “proceed evil thoughts, fornications, adulteries, thefts, false witnesses.” Matthew 15:19 Wherefore also the Prophet said, “Create in me a clean heart, O God.” Psalm 51:10 And another, “Wash your heart from wickedness, O Jerusalem.” Jeremiah 4:14 (You see that it is both our [work] and God's.) And again, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” Matthew 5:8

Let us become clean to the utmost of our power. Let us wipe away our sins. And how to wipe them away, the prophet teaches, saying, “Wash you, make you clean, put away your wickedness from your souls, before My eyes.” Isaiah 1:16 What is “before My eyes”? Because some seem to be free from wickedness, but only to men, while to God they are manifest as being “whited sepulchers.” Therefore He says, so put them away as I see. “Learn to do well, seek judgment, do justice for the poor and lowly.” “Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord: and though your sins be as scarlet, I will make you white as snow, and if they be as crimson, I will make you white as wool.” Isaiah 1:17-18 You see that we must first cleanse ourselves, and then God cleanses us. For having said first, “Wash you, make you clean,” He then added “I will make you white.”

...

Continued...

 

[Allan]

Here is the rest

...Let no one then, [even] of those who have come to the extremest wickedness, despair of himself. For (He says) even if you have passed into the habit, yea and almost into the nature of wickedness itself, be not afraid. Therefore taking [the instance of] colors that are not superficial but almost of the substance of the materials, He said that He would bring them into the opposite state. For He did not simply say that He would “wash” us, but that He would “make” us “white, as snow and as wool,” in order to hold out good hopes before us. Great then is the power of repentance, at least if it makes us as snow, and whitens us as wool, even if sin have first got possession and dyed our souls.

Let us labor earnestly then to become clean; He has enjoined nothing burdensome. “Judge the fatherless, and do justice for the widow.” Isaiah 1:17 You see everywhere how great account God makes of mercy, and of standing forward in behalf of those that are wronged. These good deeds let us pursue after, and we shall be able also, by the grace of God, to attain to the blessings to come: which may we all be counted worthy of, in Christ Jesus our Lord, with whom to the Father together with the Holy Ghost, be glory, power, honor, now and for ever and world without end. Amen

 

[Andy T.]

LOL.. That is not and has nothing to do with Pelagianism but then again making a judgment call on anything that is chopped up isn't very smart.

Agreed. I'm just commenting on the quotes as they appear in the OP, which have been used as a defense of libertarian free will.

However Faith preceding regeneration isn't Pelagainism

If it is a faith that requires no assistance or grace from God whatsoever, then I think it is essentially Pelagianism.

 

[J.D.]

A quote from THE Church Father:

"no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. "

 

[Allan]

Agreed. I'm just commenting on the quotes as they appear in the OP, which have been used as a defense of libertarian free will.

I realize that but it must be examined from the source material and 'then' come to a conclusion. While it does state these things, most times for the sake of brevity it is 'chopped up' to show the 'gist' of the point.

If it is a faith that requires no assistance or grace from God whatsoever, then I think it is essentially Pelagianism.

I agree, but that is not what was being spoken of here (no assistance from God 'whatsoever'). It is merely speaking of man being allowed to choose because God is acting upon.toward him.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Huh, so the Early Church Fathers (the ones Winman quoted) held to Believer's Baptism like we Baptists do? Learn something new every day. Thanks, Allan.

All due respects, AndyT, if we are to reject something or the other such as a soteriology because the one holding to that soteriology has a different view on baptism, shouldn't we also reject the Calvinist position since Calvin and other Calvinists of the past, held to something which we perceive to be unscriptural baptism ?

Forgive me if I did not represent what you were saying correctly.

 

[Winman]

AndyT asked a plain and simple question.
Why can't he be given a fair and simple answer.

As for the quotes ?
winman has proven himself in the past to pick statements and paragraphs that represents his view and misrepresents the entire document, so why should one jump at it ?

This is several times you and others have falsely accused me of "chopping up" or editing material so that it misrepresents the entire document, and once again I am going to show you wrong. Here is where I got those quotes. Now, if the author of this page (who I disagree with on several points of doctrine) cut them up, I have nothing to do with that. I was simply looking for these quotes which I had seen online before.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/church_fathers_and_free_will.html

I actually found this page by googling "early church fathers believed in free will" because I already knew that the vast majority of early church fathers did not believe as Calvin or Augustine and believed the unregenerate man had the ability to believe and express faith in God which is absolutely true. You cannot change history just to make it support Calvinism.

Augustine introduced much error to the church and Calvin picked up from him. There is an interesting article on Augustine worth reading there, for one thing he did not even know the original languages that so many here put so much stock in and rely upon his translations.

 

[Andy T.]

I agree, but that is not what was being spoken of here (no assistance from God 'whatsoever'). It is merely speaking of man being allowed to choose because God is acting upon.toward him.

I don't know - when I read that larger portion you posted from John C., I still see the principle being taught that we must take the first step. Granted, he says once we take that first step, God does the heavy lifting, so to speak, but it seems that he thinks that first step is completely our own, which I think is Pelagian (albeit, maybe a soft form of it).