Earrings and tattoo's

James, is your point that I said clergyperson instead of clergyman? If so, I don't understand why you're so distressed. Clergyman means a man who is a member of the clergy. Clergyperson means a person who is a member of the clergy.

I prefer to use the more inclusive of the two terms, particularly when I am talking about clergy in general since it's more accurate.

Why does the use of gender-inclusive language bother you?

Joshua

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Joshua - you don't need to flaunt your pro-feminist and pro-gay agenda, remember. We know you are a "different" kind of Baptist, and pastor, minister, et al are masculine terms, but they are what GOD chose to use, not me or you.

Enough discussion on this. Don't divert from the topic at hand - earrings and tattoos. That is controversial enough for all of us!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bob, I hope your tongue is firmly in your cheek here. I was about to write a serious reply pointing out that I didn't flaunt anything, merely used a word that I probably use twenty times a day in one context of another (and then was puzzled when someone challenged it). Then I realized you had to be kidding.

Joshua

P.S. You are kidding, right ?

 

Rev. Joshua:
You being a Rev., I find it bordering on being repulsive that you would EVEN consider using such a trendy, politically correct and absurd term such as (clergyperson). We won't agree on this so-called babble called "inclusive language" so enough of this. I just find it comical that a "Baptist" minister of the word of God would insist on using such a feminist, worldly, nonsensical term.
We also would not agree, if you are correct, that the term ... ugh... throw-up ... "clergyperson" is a more accurate term to describe the clergy than clergyman. I'm not sure what type of baptist church you are a preacher in, but most baptist churches I know wouldn't have a woman preacher. Now, don't get me wrong. Women are wonderful creatures and I love them (well some of them) alot. But if I walked into a Baptist Church and saw a woman preacher, I'd be out of there so fast.How can you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously when you are running around using such idiotic "inclusive language"?

Really, I'm beginning to think you are not serious about all this and this is some type of spoof. Please, tell me it is a spoof.
Enought of this and the ear rings, nose rings, lip rings, and all the other mutilation of the body. Actually, I find it rather depressing that some people defend all this stuff. I wonder what Luther, Calvin, John Gill, and some of the other great men of God would think about a preacher wearing ear rings, and running around using words like "clergyperson"? I think I know the answer to that one.
James2

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

Don, I would reply to that person and explain that our salvation does not waver on our looks or what we wear....people have a bad misconception about this and the world needs to understand...it's not an outward change but an inward change.

karen

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God warns of such things in the OT book of Deut.I would be very careful of violating one of God's commands. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That depends, are you under grace, or law? It can't be both.


Men looks at the outward appearance, God at the inner.

 

Redwhite and blue:
---------------------------------------------
Don, I would reply to that person and explain that our salvation does not waver on our looks or what we wear....people have a bad misconception about this and the world needs to understand...it's not an outward change but an inward change.
karen
---------------------------------------------
Of course our salvation does not depend on our looks or what we wear -- our salvation depends solely on the Sovereign Grace of God and what He did FOR US. However, what we are on the inside is reflected on how we look on the outside. I'm not talking about wearing clean clothes, being fat, slim, tall, short etc. I'm talking about what we do TURSELVES, like mutilating our bodies by hanging rings in the nose, lips, well... and all the other places .... that lost sinners can come up with to make themselves ugly. I'm talking about gross tattoos that discolor the skin and body and usually are accompanied by obscene or gross messages or pictures. You can think that is honoring to the Thrice Holy God, but I beg to differ.

What a person is on the inside will be reflected on the outside. Just who is a person trying to impress by grossing out their body? Trying to impress the Thrice Holy God? The Body of Christ? Fellow regenerated Christians? Or are they more for impressing the depraved sinners of the world, are they for making a statement against authority, parents, idiolizing some "rock star," etc.?
I guess I would disagree with anyone who says self-mutilation is God-honoring.
James2

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

James2,
I must say your attitude and tone are repulsive to me. You obviously stay in sheltered world a lot and seldom enter real world for terms like clergyperson and seeing people with tattoos and earrings to distress you so much.
I know plenty of folks that got tattoos before they were saved. What about them?
Also, I do a lot of work with the homeless, which comprise drug addicts, mentally ill, sociial mis-fits, etc. Whenever I go to witness to a new group, I take one of the "street" preachers with me. They all have tattooos and/or earrings. Guess what? These guys give me an in. Why? Because a lot of these folks look the same way that preacher does and they figure if Jesus could love the preacher, despite their worldly appearance, then perhaps there is hope for them, too.
Sometimes inclusiveness works much better than rejection.
It seems the only sinners Jesus rejected were of the present day church. You know the ones - pharisees...sadducees.

 

Optional:
Pleasseeee!!!!!! If you find my attitude repulsive so be it. The truth hurts!!
The people that disfigured their bodies before they were saved are probably wishing they had not done something so silly. Proves my point. I don't see people that are saved putting holes in their bodies, or burning images on their bodies, or going out of their way to make themselves ugly!!! Do you?

Maybe you think you need to act like the people you are "preaching" to, but I find that rather offensive. The Holy Spirit does not need someome to dress-up like a punk rocker, or put holes in their bodies and freaky hair in order to regenerate someone. Christians don't have to sing that repulsive "rap music" to "save" people that have had their brains numbed by that stuff.

God is in charge, and is a powerful, Holy God. He doesn's stoop to our level to beg some depraved sinner to "please, please accept my offer of salvation. Pretty please, I'm so lonely, what would I do if you rejected me?" What kind of a God do you think is in charge of this universe?

The God in charge is the Thrice HOLY GOD. The God that would blind you if you looked at Him. One does not have to become a prostitute in order to "win another soul for Christ" among the prostitutes!!!

Talking about finding something repulsive!!! CLERGYPERSON---It is really a very trendy, politically correct term. If you don't agree, that's fine with me. I will not use it, and find the term nonsensical, to say the least.

Sheltered? Let's see. I have worked with the "homeless" most of whom by the way, are on the streets by choice not by being a "victim" of someone. I've had them in my house, been robbed blind, had my phone bill run up into the hundreds of dollars, had my cars wrecked by them, had my wallet stolen, my books stolen, my clothes stolen, have had them try to extort money from me etc. Yea, sure, sheltered!!!
I've been a city cop and dealt with those types for years. Talk about empirical evidence for Original Sin. Just go to a "homeless" shelter and watch the panhandlers work.
So-called "inclusiveness" may work for you but I still find it repulsive.
If you want to "help" the "homeless", most of which are perfectly happy being lazy and drunk and spending their effort stealing to buy drugs, preach the pure gospel of Christ to them. You don't need to act like them or look like them. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation!!!!! One does not need to compromise with the depraved, totally lost sinners in order to "save" them. Preach the pure gospel, and if God decides to REGENERATE them, they WILL BE REGENERATED, no matter what you do. I give you praise for trying, but you know as well as I do, that in the end, it is the Holy Spirit that does the saving. Not a look-alike, act-alike person, no matter how well intentioned.
I've had a family of seven refugees living in my house for a year at my expense, I had a couple that were living in their car behind a hotel live with me for six months at my expense, I had a lost soul that was living in a tool shed in an alley behind a 7-11 store live with me for 3 years until he could get off drugs, get a job and get back on his feet. (by the way, that person was REGENERATED by the power of the Holy Spirit) and is now drug free, self-supporting and a Born Again Christian.
So don't tell me about being sheltered. Been there, done that!!!!!
Now, that being said, I wish you success in your endeavors. I will pray that the Holy Spirit works in your group and REGENERATES many.
Jesus did reject the Pharisee's and others. He HATED those that thought they could work their way to salvation by doing good works. Nothing wrong with good works -- of course they don't save you -- God alone does that. I'm sure you agree with that.
James2

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
Optional:
I don't see people that are saved putting holes in their bodies, or burning images on their bodies, or going out of their way to make themselves ugly!!! Do you?
[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I do. More than I can count. Several young men that serve in the church as Sunday School teachers and youth leaders. I even know several young women that have tatoos also, that are Christians. I myself had my ears pierced after I was a Christian. And I wear only one pair of earrings all the time, diamond studs that my husband bought me.
Sue

 

Having a ear pierced seems to be a pretty common practice. My daughter had her ears pierced when she was 13. That's not the problem. I'm talking about the modern-day piercing so you can hang rings out of your nose, and other places. Why on earth some male would want to have a ring in their ear or nose is beyond me, and I find it very disturbing and plain silly looking. Being saved means more than saying you are saved, and if you have rings hanging out of your nose, ears, and all the other obscene places I've seen, I would question what your priorities really are -- Jesus Christ and the gospel, or trying to "look good" or trendy to impress your friends.

I'm not talking about you personally, but in general. I find it a very God-dishonoring practice. (Other than a tastefully done thing so you can wear a nice ear ring), although I don't know why you would even want to do that.
I think you know what type I'm talking about.
James2

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

James2, I do totally understand what you are saying and on a personal level feel the same way. It used to be that the only men that wore tattoos and piercings rode motorcycles, wore leather and terrorized small communities. Not anymore, white collar, blue collar, young and old, men and women, in other words all walks of life.
You questioned whether people that had been saved would do these things. I know of several that serve in local churches and no, none are in my local church. And maybe I assume too much, maybe they are not "believers", as they proclaim they are. But what if they conduct themselves in a Christlike manner, regardless of their appearances?
Sue

 

Sue:
If they conduct themselves in a Christ-like manner, it will show. I don't believe that Jesus wore ANYTHING out of the ordinary clothes of the day, so as not to distract people from the message.
I believe that what is on the inside, will reflect on what is worn on the outside. Can I make the blanket statement that people with rings hanging out of all their body parts are not saved? Hummmm! I don't know. Probably more aren't that are. And if hanging out of some of the more hidden body parts, I'd say probably not saved. Just my humble opinion.

I think a child of God, one who has been regenerated by the awesome sovereignity of God, to have a mind like Christ, and want to be in obedience to that high calling of the elect, would not mutilate themselves.
Have a great day!!
James2

 

Well, I must admit that this has been an interesting (and at times quite entertaining) thread, and I feel the time has come to stop lurking and to throw my two cents into the fray.

James2 is noted as having said, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Maybe you think you need to act like the people you are "preaching" to, but I find that rather offensive. The Holy Spirit does not need someome to dress-up like a punk rocker, or put holes in their bodies and freaky hair in order to regenerate someone. Christians don't have to sing that repulsive "rap music" to "save" people that have had their brains numbed by that stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well James, on the one hand, I agree with you; it IS the power of the Holy Spirit working in a life, regenerating it. But (now I bet you knew I was going to throw that in there, didn't you?), I know from firsthand experience that sometimes it is easier for a "freak" to gain acceptance, and trust, than for someone wearing a three-piece suit carrying a 30 pound bible ready to "cram" it down someone's throat. I know, because at one point in my life, I was the "freak" being preached to, by another "freak." I could relate to this man, and was willing to listen to what he had to say. Not that I would have totally tuned out "Mr. Three Piece Suit," it's just at that point in my life, I was more comfortable with the "freaks" of this world, whether they were unregenerate sinners, or a preacher who looked like a "freak."

Besides, it was Paul himself who said that "he became all things to all people, that by all means, he might save (i.e., win) some [to Christ]" (1 Corinthians 9:22 NASB). (Okay, now I know I just made enemies out of the three-forths of the people on this fine board who are KJVO ). I look at it this way, if it's good enough for the apostle Paul, then it's good enough for me.

Until next time, y'all take care!!

AJC

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fcs25:
God warns of such things in the OT book of Deut.I would be very careful of violating one of God's commands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greetings everyone!
I am new here, and as I was reading this thread, this quote made by fcs25 jumped out at me! So I had to respond....lol
I am surprised nobody caught it sooner......
fcs25, Please allow me to ask you some questions....Have you ever told a lie? even a small lie? Have you ever stole anything? even a paperclip from work? Have you ever looked at a member of the opposite sex and lusted? Answers to most of these questions would be yes. You have already violated God's Commands. You , as well as all of us, are already guilty as charged! So, what's our defense? Jesus! He paid the penalty for our sins, we stand innocent before God now. Not because of any good work or because we "try" to be good.. It is ONLY because of the Blood Jesus shed for us. God looks upon us and sees Jesus, not our works, not our clothes, not our earrings, not our outer person, He sees us for who we are, and He loves us anyway! His kindness is what leads us to repentance, not His judgements. I truly hope you understand this truth. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus! We are set free! I don't know you, so I am not sure of what your views are. I just saw this one quote from you.
Naomi

 

Bible Thumper:
Well, to start with I like your handle. And you are right. Your response is about what I expected. So let me point out a couple of things.
First of all I didn't say freaky people, but freaky hair. Big difference. Secondly, I restate my original objection: The Holy Spirit does the convicting, and I don't find that it is necessary or proper to look or smell or act like who(that's like throwing pearls before swine. That's like begging some lost person to please, pretty please accept what Jesus did for you on the cross, when we know they CAN'T if God does not do the regenerating) or whatever you are trying to reach with the gospel. If it happens because of the situation, that's fine, but to say, Let's see now. I'm going to be dealing with homeless, wife-beaters and drug addicts, so I better put on my old, smelly, worn out looking clothes so I can be "successful" in preaching the gospel. On the other hand I would not wear a 3-piece suit and cram a bible down someone's throat like you mentioned. That would be equally absurd.

The gospel is the power of God for salvation. We don't need to play to someone's level. If God is going to regenerate them, they will get regenerated.
You quote 1 cor 9:22. Paul is saying is ALL THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE. Surely, you realize how the word all is used in the bible. It is used in many, many different ways. For example, when it said that John the Baptist was baptizing people in the Jordan it says ALL THE people of Judea came to be baptized. Now, we know that does not mean every man, women and child in the enite country. Likewise, when Paul says he will be ALL THINGS TO ALL people he doesn't mean that if he is preaching to a rapist he will be come a rapist, to a drunk a drunk, to a drug dealer, a drug dealer, to a street person that is drunk, on drugs and smelling like it, that he would become a street person that is drunk, on drugs and smelling like it.

I think you understand my point, and I thank you for your nice response.

By the way, welcome to the board. I see that your response to me was your first one. Should I feel honored?
God Bless
James2

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

Naomi:
You say because there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, and that He died for our sins, and His righteousness is imputed to us, etc., He sees us as we are, not what we look like.
All you say, to a degree is true. But like Paul says, because we are saved by grace, does that mean we can sin more to have more grace? GOD FORBID!!!! he says.
Even tho people like to be all mushy about "Jesus loves everybody just as they are" that is not true and can not be found in the entire bible. You must remember that God hates sin, evil doers, he most certainly did not die for unbelievers and people that reject and despise him. He is also the LION of the Tribe of Judah too.

I understand what you are saying, but my point was that He DOES SEE US AS WE ARE. And if we are not regenerated, He sees us as a depraved, God-hating sinner that is on their way to hell. That is what he sees!!!!

You say it is God's kindness that leads us to repentance. Actually it is the Sovereign Will of God, acting because of his good pleasure before the foundation of the world, that, doesn't LEAD us to repentance, but, through no good of our own, REGENERATES US. IF it were up to us, if it were our choice, we wouldn't repent and wouldn't want to repent and would all be headed to hell.
Maybe you misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear, but I was talking about preaching to people who are lost, not to people who were already believers. For those that aren't believers, that's all that is in them == condemnation!!

You say, have you ever told a lie, or lusted after someone? Of course I have never lusted after anyone or ever told a lie! (Ok, maybe once or twice) Just kidding. I hope you are not saying that because we have been regenerated we don't have to worry about how we live out our Christian life because God paid the price for us. That's why Paul said God Forbid!!! to that kind of thinking.

I appreciate your comments and think we agree fairly well, but are talking about two different things on some of this.

Also, you say that God looks on us and only sees the blood of Jesus, not our works. Very true, as long as you are referring to believers that have already been REGENERATED by the Sovereign will of God.
James2

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First of all I didn't say freaky people, but freaky hair. Big difference. Secondly, I restate my original objection: The Holy Spirit does the convicting, and I don't find that it is necessary or proper to look or smell or act like who(that's like throwing pearls before swine. That's like begging some lost person to please, pretty please accept what Jesus did for you on the cross, when we know they CAN'T if God does not do the regenerating) or whatever you are trying to reach with the gospel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's the point in me witnessing to these people, then? Either they're chosen by God - or not. Seems I have no effect on the situation.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
Naomi:
You say because there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, and that He died for our sins, and His righteousness is imputed to us, etc., He sees us as we are, not what we look like.
All you say, to a degree is true. But like Paul says, because we are saved by grace, does that mean we can sin more to have more grace? GOD FORBID!!!! he says.
Even tho people like to be all mushy about "Jesus loves everybody just as they are" that is not true and can not be found in the entire bible. You must remember that God hates sin, evil doers, he most certainly did not die for unbelievers and people that reject and despise him. He is also the LION of the Tribe of Judah too.

I understand what you are saying, but my point was that He DOES SEE US AS WE ARE. And if we are not regenerated, He sees us as a depraved, God-hating sinner that is on their way to hell. That is what he sees!!!!

You say it is God's kindness that leads us to repentance. Actually it is the Sovereign Will of God, acting because of his good pleasure before the foundation of the world, that, doesn't LEAD us to repentance, but, through no good of our own, REGENERATES US. IF it were up to us, if it were our choice, we wouldn't repent and wouldn't want to repent and would all be headed to hell.
Maybe you misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear, but I was talking about preaching to people who are lost, not to people who were already believers. For those that aren't believers, that's all that is in them == condemnation!!

You say, have you ever told a lie, or lusted after someone? Of course I have never lusted after anyone or ever told a lie! (Ok, maybe once or twice) Just kidding. I hope you are not saying that because we have been regenerated we don't have to worry about how we live out our Christian life because God paid the price for us. That's why Paul said God Forbid!!! to that kind of thinking.

I appreciate your comments and think we agree fairly well, but are talking about two different things on some of this.

Also, you say that God looks on us and only sees the blood of Jesus, not our works. Very true, as long as you are referring to believers that have already been REGENERATED by the Sovereign will of God.
James2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James: You said:
You say because there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, and that He died for our sins, and His righteousness is imputed to us, etc., He sees us as we are, not what we look like.
All you say, to a degree is true. But like Paul says, because we are saved by grace, does that mean we can sin more to have more grace? GOD FORBID!!!! he says.

Scripture says:

Romans 8: There is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.....

I stated:
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!
We can agree, that is is for those who are already christians.

James, you stated:
You must remember that God hates sin, evil doers, he most certainly did not die for unbelievers and people that reject and despise him.

Please re-read this....I do not think you meant to write this....did you?

James, you also stated:
You say it is God's kindness that leads us to repentance. Actually it is the Sovereign Will of God, acting because of his good pleasure before the foundation of the world, that, doesn't LEAD us to repentance, but, through no good of our own, REGENERATES US.

Scripture says:
Romans 2:4-....The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.

James, you stated:
IF it were up to us, if it were our choice,
we wouldn't repent.

I did a study on the word repent...all through out scripture it seems to be up to us...here are a few examples: Luke 13:3 except YE repent....Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized.....Acts 17:30-but now commandeth ALL MEN everywhere to repent...Matthew 9:13
Jesus is saying He has come to call sinners to repentance.
I agree that it is God who does the work within us, but it begins with us allowing Him to. Yet, He also knows who will, and who will not accept the call. Example, Peter and Judas...

I say all this not to argue with you, but we need to make ourselves clear on what we are saying. I hope you really hear my heart James, because I think we do agree on quite a bit. May we stir one another on, yet still have fellowship as brothers and sisters in the Lord! After all, we will be spending ETERNITY together!
Naomi

 

Two of the major points that are being missed here by most on this discussion are:
What is worldliness?
What is modesty?
Worldliness, according to the NT, is acting, talking & thinking like the world. Colossians 3 says we are to mortify our members on the earth; and keep our eyes set on Jesus Christ. If we're mortifying our earthly parts, we're not going to be running after the latest trends which try to look like the rock & movie stars.
Modesty is where a meek & humble spirit far outshines my clothes & hair (1 Pet. 3).
Modesty & mortification DO NOT mean looking like Ozzie & Harriet in an Ozzie Ozborn & Marilyn Manson world.
HOWEVER!! Biblical modesty & mortification DO mean we attune ourselves to a love of holiness (in thought, word, & deed--which include dress), rather than a love of looking, smelling & acting like the world!!
Yes--there are immature, worldly people who are saved & look (and act) like the world. In no way does that justify their hair/clothing/music styles. God is faithful, and will chastise them & grow them up. We need to set a good example, love them, pray for them--but not give in to their worldliness!
Just as it's a shame for a teenage girl to get up and sing a special for church in a skirt much too short (if she bent over, well, we'd all know everything we didn't want to know)...so it is a shame for Christian men & women (and ministers!) to act & dress like the world.
May God purify, reform & revive His Church; giving us a love for holiness, doctrine, love & compassion for the lost! We must have the FRUIT of the Spirit at work in us, to do the WORK of the Spirit!