Earrings and tattoo's

Optional:
The point of you witnessing to these people is because God tells you to witness and preach the gospel. That's why. It is the Holy Spirit that does the convicting and regenerating, not the person doing the preaching. God may use a preacher as a means to bring a person to regeneration and we, of course, do not KNOW who the Elect are or are going to be, so preach to them.
Look at Noah. He was a preacher of righteousness for 120 years and he CONVERTED no one other than his immediate family. My point is that it is God that does the regenerating, not man, tho he does use men as a means to an end sometimes.

Also, any saved person has that "diamond in the rough" and does not need to go down to anyone's level hoping they "might" accept Jesus. You preach, God regenerates.
James2

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

Naomi:

Here is a site you might find helpful. It discusses the Doctrine of Election, which is taught throughout the entire bible.
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/predestination.asp

Now, you say God does a work in us by it starts by ALLOWING God to. Naomi, please, you don't really believe that do you? Do you think that God sent His Son to die as an atonement, but the atonement does not atone for anything unless depraved, God-hating sinners ALLOW IT?

Of course we are called on to repent. We are also called on not to sin. Repentance is a gift of God. If God has not regenerated you (born again) you WILL NOT repent, or even think you have anything to repent for. Why do you suppose some repent and others don't? Do you think that some are more holy than others, or that some make a better "choice."? If that were the case those repenting would have something to boast about wouldn't they?

God must first regenerate you so that you CAN believe. Like Acts 13:48 says, All those that God ORDAINED to eternal life, believed. Notice the order here. First God ORDAINED, APPOINTED, CHOSE THEM, then they believed. Not the other way around.

I do consider you a sister in Christ and I believe you are sincere and well-meaning. But, please, look into some of this. This doctrine is so important that I don't see how a person can understand the gospel if they don't understand this very basic doctrine.

Eph. 1:4-5 states it clearly. Before the foundation we were chosen in Christ. We don't allow the Sovereign God of the universe to do anything or not do anything.

Of course God knew who was going to choose the gospel. He knew from all eternity who he was going to REGENERATE and who he wasn't. He didn't look down through the centuries and say, oh look over here. Here is someome accepting me. Oh boy, oh boy. I can save him now. No, no, no!!!!! People ACCEPT Jesus because God first REGENERATED them and gave them the gift of faith. Our salvation is utterly out of our hands and completely in the hands of another -- God alone.
James2

 

javalady:
Amen! That's basically what I have been saying. Right on!!
James2

 

James2,

I think it would do you and others who are so concerned about appearance good to read the following from Scripture:

"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.

Daniel Payne

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: paynedaniel ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:


Now, you say God does a work in us by it starts by ALLOWING God to. Naomi, please, you don't really believe that do you?

Naomi: Yes!

Do you think that God sent His Son to die as an atonement, but the atonement does not atone for anything unless depraved, God-hating sinners ALLOW IT?

Exactly!!

Of course we are called on to repent. We are also called on not to sin.

James, Have you stopped sinning? If so, how?

Repentance is a gift of God. If God has not regenerated you (born again) you WILL NOT repent, or even think you have anything to repent for. Why do you suppose some repent and others don't? Do you think that some are more holy than others, or that some make a better "choice."? If that were the case those repenting would have something to boast about wouldn't they?

Yes! Yet not in themselves, only in what Jesus has done for them.

God must first regenerate you so that you CAN believe. Like Acts 13:48 says, All those that God ORDAINED to eternal life, believed. Notice the order here. First God ORDAINED, APPOINTED, CHOSE THEM, then they believed. Not the other way around.

Believe in the Lord Jesus and ye shall be saved! Repent and be baptised in fire and in water. Choose this day whom ye shall serve.
Yes, God does give us a choice. If He only "chose" certain people they would have no choices in the matter of salvation, would that be just? No. How unfair that would be. Yet, it is HIS will that ALL be saved. How can He make this statement if it is not true?
Although He knows who will and who will not repent beforehand. It is two different issues. Calvinism vs. Arminanism has been a long time debate! one which we are not going to solve here! LOL

I do consider you a sister in Christ and I believe you are sincere and well-meaning. But, please, look into some of this. This doctrine is so important that I don't see how a person can understand the gospel if they don't understand this very basic doctrine.

Oh, I always thought it was the Holy Spirit that lead us into understanding the bible

Eph. 1:4-5 states it clearly. Before the foundation we were chosen in Christ. We don't allow the Sovereign God of the universe to do anything or not do anything.

Amen!

Of course God knew who was going to choose the gospel. He knew from all eternity who he was going to REGENERATE and who he wasn't.

So, some He would never consider regenerating....even if they asked?

He didn't look down through the centuries and say, oh look over here. Here is someome accepting me. Oh boy, oh boy. I can save him now. No, no, no!!!!!

Yes! Yes! Yes! In fact all the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner repents!

Our salvation is utterly out of our hands and completely in the hands of another -- God alone.

Amen!
James2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nullYes!null

 

Naomi:
Needless to say, we disagree on almost all the theological points being discussed. You are totally committed to the concept that man saves himself. Without man's "choice" in "accepting the atonement" and in freely choosing repentance, and even worse, you say we have to "let God work in us."
Since you are new to the board I would suggest that you read some of the 100's of entries and discussions elsewhere on the board.
This subject has been debated ad nauseam. I have come to the conclusion that a person is either going to get it or they are not. This subject, God's Sovereign grace and man's so-called "free-will" has been debated for centuries and probably will until Christ comes again in His Glory.

Other than the web site I suggested, you might find it worthwhile to get a copy of Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will. It's a book that debates the subject with the great Catholic humanists Erasmus.

Also, every single scripture that you quoted, without exception, has been answered and shown to offer no support whatsoever to the concept of man "choosing" his own salvation or his "free-will." Nothing more can be said.
Welcome to the board and many happy postings. I leave you with this one quote from Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will:

"A man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realizes that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another -- God Alone!"
God Bless and have a great day

One more article if you are interested:
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=255

James2

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

James,
I am sorry that is what you read into what I was saying. Forgive me if I miscommunicated anything here. I never wanted to bring across the message that man can save himself.
Only what Jesus did on the cross cleanses us from sin. You said this:

I leave you with this one quote from Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will:

"A man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realizes that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another -- God Alone!"

I agree 100% with this quote. There is no way we can save ourselves. I only said that the beginning point for me, was to ACCEPT what Jesus did on the cross as being the ONLY way to be saved! We can agree that Jesus is the only way. We cannot agree that only some people were chosen and some were not. His will is ALL to be saved. Yet, we make this an issue, where it should not be an issue at all. Does it really matter? We know and believe Jesus saved us, and He died in our place. I am born-again, and on my way to heaven...no doubt! My assurance is in the blood of Jesus alone! Not in a doctrinal issue. My father once said....I have seen many "church" people in places I have worked, and there is one thing they have in common, if one is a Baptist and one is a "methodist" (or whatever denomination) there will be an arguement.
How sad! Jesus said, People will know who we are by the love we have one for another.
Why do you make calvinism such an issue?
It would have been better for those people at my fathers work to show the character of Christ. They would have had tohe doors open to share the gospel with him. But because of "doctrinal" issues, they were closed!
I am not suggesting to have fellowship with people who deny the Trinity, but may we grow up in our walk. Who really gives a rip about these differences? I have friends who believe in osas, and friends who do not. I have wonderful fellowship with both. We do not make it an issue. Why be so divisive over this? My main goal is to go into the highways and bi-ways and preach the gospel, to take in the orphans, to visit the ones in jail.....oops, i may end up smelling like the world!! Good!!! I would rather smell like the world and see people set free, then smell like the religious ones and complain about doctrine. When our eyes are focused upon the lost, we will not have time to focus upon ourselves and other "christians"
amen?
Thanks James
Naomi

 

James,
Please forgive me in my last reply. I did not respond with the right attitude.
It was in no way my desire to get in a debate about Calvinism. If so, I would have went to the other forum here that debated that isssue. I have no intention of even going there. Only because it ends up getting divisive. There are good points to each side. I would rather keep the MAIN thing, the MAIN thing.
I am sorry if I came off to be offensive.
God Bless,
Naomi

 

Hi Naomi:
Now I feel badly because you do. You didn't do anything to be forgiven for, just expressing your views same as me. We disagree on many points of doctrine but that's what this board is all about--discussing different views. I didn't take anything you said personally or find anything offensive -- I believe you to be in error, but that's what we've been debating. So, sister in Christ, everything is fine. Ok?

I guess I just get soooooo frustrated when discussing, for lack of a better term, Calvinism, because I am FIRMLY convinced that to have a accurate understanding of the gospel one has to have a understanding of the doctrine of election.

All scriptures, like "God desires ALL to be saved" have been dealt with to such an extent that nothing more can be said. Taking all scripture, using the anology of scripture, letting scripture intrepert inself I find it impossible to come to any other conclusion that God chooses some and not others because it is His good pleasure to do so -- He is the Sovereign God and creater of the universe. He is the Potter and we are the clay. If God desired ALL (without exception to be saved) they WOULD BE SAVED. PERIOD!!!! Read John, Chapter 10. Jesus says He will LOSE none of those that the Father has given me. That statement means there are some who the Father DIDN'T give him. Anyway, I want so much for people to know the truth so the truth can set them free like it did me. That's why it is so frustrating. No matter what one says, the answer is always, well, yea, but everybody has a opportunity to choose or reject God. Even tho the entire Bible rejects that very idea from the beginng of God's dealings with Israel to the book of Revelation.

Please at least give an objective look at the websites I suggested. I used to believe the same way you did, but after years, and years of study I finally came to a really true understanding of God's sovereignity.

If you read some of the 100's of entires on this subject you will see what I mean about the absolute futility of discussing it anymore. A person will either get it or they won't. Thanks for you nice response and be rest assured that everything is fine with me and I consider you a true sister in Christ.
God Bless
James2

 

Yes, Brother James2, we are on the same page. I've enjoyed reading your posts. PreacherDave & I also embrace the doctrines of grace, and also desire to help others not feel threatened by "Calvinism"; nor feel we don't accept them as brethren if they do not "get it" as you said.
The passion for truth (both doctrinal & practical) & the passion for souls is an essential marriage; one that must not be divorced, ever! One without the other is a freak; an obscuring of what the Bible teaches.
Preach on, Brother James2!

 

Javalady:
Thank you so much for the kind words of encouragement. It gets soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo frustrating!!!!!!! It is so clear to me what is right I just want others to enjoy it with me. Well, not all is lost!! I've gained two new sisters in Christ. Amen!!
James2

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:

It gets soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo frustrating!!!!!!! It is so clear to me what is right I just want others to enjoy it with me.
James2

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James,
If it gets frustrating...put it aside. It's not a major issue in salvation. I am set free by the Blood of Jesus, my eternal place in heaven is secure. I am a chosen one from God, no doubt! I have been saved for 16 years. I have "been around the theology block", once or twice! LOL, So, if I believe God foreknew me, and He chose me since the foundation of the world.........because He knew beforehand, I would choose to follow Him, and put my trust in Him...what difference does it make to you? Calvinism is no threat to me, but what bothers me, is the fruit that comes from debating it. I am born-again, and in love with Jesus, I have been redeemed. I am not a Calvinist, I am not an Armenium (spelling)? I am a Christian.
The truth that sets people free, is that God became a man, dwealt among us, He gave His life for us on the cross, and He was risen on the third day, and He has left us with the Holy Spirit to dwell within us. This is the absolute truth that sets people free. Anything else is a non-essential. God will lead us into all truth, maybe I am wrong, maybe you are wrong in some of the doctrine, but we all see through a glass dimly. If I knew 100% of everything, I would be all-knowing, and I would not need God. I don't know everything, and do not claim that I do. All I know is, you do not have to be frustrated in your doctrinal position. James, my brother, you are a a passionate believer, no doubt, I would rather have someone like you to fellowship with, then someone who does not care about issues, and act as if they are in a "cloud" in their position in christianity, and not have a clue why they believe as they do! I know we will stir one another on, and I hope we can be friends!
Naomi

 

Naomi;
It is frustrating, but not frustrating enough to put it aside. It is the truth and I want to share it with EVERYONE!!!
We can be friends, and thank God we are saved. That's what is really important. (God did save you before the foundation of the world, not because He foresaw that you would accept the gospel, but because He REGENERATED you so you WOULD accept the gospel. That's the truth!!!!). Just wanted to point that out. (I'm sorry, I can't help it!!!!).

I agree. Don't you just get puzzled by people who seem to be in a "cloud" about their beliefs. Kind of like well, I believe Jesus loves everybody, and he accepts me just as I am. Forget all that doctrine stuff, etc. I can tell you love Jesus and are
one of those given to Him by the Father.
By the way, one of the reasons I think doctrine is important is because of the scripture(Titus 2:1).

I think you would agree that faith and good works are the RESULT, not the CAUSE of God's CHOICE. So with that in mind, I leave you with a word from scripture:

2 Timothy 1:9---who has saved us and CALLED us with a holy CALLING, NOT ACCORDING TUR WORKS, (with accepting the gospel based on our own free-will would be)but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE and grace which was GRANTED us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

Have to get to work, so you have a great day.
Enough on this subject on this thread. Back to more mundane things like rings in the nose etc.
James2

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

Well I wasn't going to comment any more in this thread, but I can't let this slide.

James2 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Timothy 1:9---who has saved us and CALLED us with a holy CALLING, NOT ACCORDING TUR WORKS, (with accepting the gospel based on our own free-will would be)but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE and grace which was GRANTED us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just added your own words to scripture! This scripture stands alone just fine without your comments about what acceptance is. If Paul thought that, he would have wrote that. No need to add to it.