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Earthly Messianic Kingdom

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. mcgyver

    mcgyver New Member

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    Hi Oldregular,
    You wrote:
    _________________________________________________
    It is a historical fact that Darby is the father of classic dispensationalism and that that doctrine would have died with Darby had it not been for Scofield's Reference bible.
    _________________________________________________

    I have to disagree with you, in that pre-millennialism existed long before Darby..

    A List of early pre-millennialists easily accessible via a search engine (note dates are approximate):
    Clement of Alexandria A.D. 40-100
    Hermas 40-150
    Ignatius 50-115
    Polycarp 70-167
    Papias 80-163
    Pothinus 87-177
    Justin Martyr 100-168
    Meltio 100-170
    Tertulian 150-220
    Hippolytus 160-240
    Appollinaris 150-200
    Cyprian 200-258
    and the list goes on......
    A summary of beliefs of some of these people may be found at www.tyndale.edu/dirn/articles/early2.html

    [​IMG]
     
  2. mcgyver

    mcgyver New Member

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    Note the title to the above link is:
    "The Early Church fathers and the foundations of dispensationalism".

    Having one of those days....... :rolleyes:
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    What is stranger is that you think that is what I said. It is not even close. The fact that Christ came to establish a kingdom is irrefutable. THat is what the OT said he was coming for, and that he what he said. That fact that he did not is also irrefutable. That is what he said, and what the NT clearly teaches. The fact that you can't reconcile that does not change the truth of it.

    God created man to honor and worship him. Does the fact that man doesn't do that mean that God failed? Of course not. The same thing is true in this case. Failing to accept God's secret will (Deut 29:29) leads to you trying to justify what you can see, rather than accepting what God has said to be true.

    Which is an expresss refutation of your own position. He has not cast Israel away. There is still a day of restoration coming, just as the OT prophets said.

    Yes, exactly. Not all of ethnic Israel is spiritual Israel. There are some ethnic Israelites who are not spiritual Israelites. That is exactly the point, and incidentally forms yet another piece of the refutation of your position.

    Wrong. Christ's promise was that it would be given to a nation was just that, a nation. The promise of a kingdom was made to Israel as a nation and must be fulfilled to Israel as a nation. Matt 21:43 is yet another refutation of your position. THe church is not a nation, and Peter's words should not be interpreted that way. He was using an OT picture, not changing the promise of God. You are right to say that the promise was never revoked. In saying such, you have yet again refuted your own position, since you believe that the promise God made of an earhtly kingdom was revoked and now it is spiritual.


    How is that too broad? Have you read Deut 30? the first several verses and traced that idea through the OT? If you were to do that, you would see the earthly kingdom as plain as day.

    No, in fact, it is the prophecy. They will look on him whom they pierced and mourn for him. There are two parts: the piercing and the repentance or mourning. How would this prophecy be fulfilled if they did not crucify him? It couldn't. Their rejection of him was a part of prophecy as is their acceptance of him.

    This is a key passage to point our the flaw in your hemeneutic. The "they" who pierced him is the same "they" who crucified him. What most of your position do (and you probably do as well) is say that the "they" who pierced him is the Jews and the "they" who repent is the church. That doesn't work. The "they" is the same. This prophecy is fulfilled in John 19:37 where they pierced and in Rev 1:7 in the end at his return where they will turn in repentance to him. Your position has no room to fulfill this, because you think Israel has been turned away in favor of the church.

    No, it's not, in two ways. First, the NC is Jer 31:31-40. It doesn't stop at v. 34. It is vv. 35-40 that expressly refute your position, and they are the NC. Secondly, the repentance is both individual and national, as the context makes clear. It says "they will all know me." All is national.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have noted on this forum on more than one occasion that premillennialism was one of the two doctrines of the second Coming in the early Church, along with amillennialism. However, dispensationalism is not just premillennialism.

    The premillennialism of the early Church was historic or covenant premillennialism which believes that the Church is one with Spiritual Israel of the Old Testament. That is, they did not believe that Jesus Chtist came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, failed, and established the Church instead.

    You need to read some more about what dispensationalists really believe.
     
  5. mcgyver

    mcgyver New Member

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    Hi Oldregular.......

    Sorry if I seem ignorant, but seems that every time I read about "Dispensationalists" I see a difference in opinion as to what they believe. I know what your stance is on A-millennialism due to your gracious answer in another thread.....

    So, in a nutshell (in your opinion) what is it that "dispensationalists" really believe? If you've given a definition somewhere else, I've missed it, direct me to it and I will read it..

    My above post is in protest to the common statement that "Darby is the father of..."

    From what I've seen (just my opinion) we who believe in a literal 1000 year reign and rapture of the church are more in line with the beliefs of the 1st and 2nd century churches, than those who do not...
    I really don't see a rise in A-millenial (or whatever term we use) thinking, or "spiritualization" of the scriptures until the third century with the writings of Caius, Clemens Alexandrinus,Origen,and Dionysius......

    I respect your opinions, though not in agreement.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Dispensational General

    My understanding of the basic propositions that characterize the dispensational system of interpretation of Scripture are as follows. I strongly disagree with point #'s 2, 3, and 4 below.

    1. Dispensational theology divides God’s dealings with humanity into a number of distinct ‘dispensations’. The New Scofield Reference Bible defines a dispensation as “a period of time during which man is tested in respect to his obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God” and distinguishes seven dispensations: Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, the Church, and the Kingdom. The word dispensation comes from the Greek word oikonomia [oikonomia, pronounced oy-kon-om-ee'-ah] which means the management of a household or of household affairs. The word does not occur in the Old Testament and occurs only seven times in the New Testament. On four occasions it is translated dispensation and on three occasions it is translated stewardship.

    2. Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ] Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.”

    3. Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.

    4. “The dispensationalist interprets the New Testament in light of the Old Testament[15].” [Herman Hoyt in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints , by Clouse, page 43]

    5. Dispensationalism insists that Scripture is to be interpreted literally. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes [page 147], “Consistent literalism is at the heart of dispensationalism eschatology.” However, the understanding of just what the literal method of interpretation varies greatly among dispensationalists as shown in Section 7.3.4.

    In discussing the dispensationalist insistence on the literal interpretation of Scripture, John P. Newport in The Lion and The Lamb, writes [page 96]: “This is particularly the case when interpreting biblical references to Israel. The term Israel must always refer to the actual nation Israel, ethnic Israel, the Israel that traces its physical descent back to Jacob. God called Jacob Israel. The term never refers to ‘spiritual Israel.’ All prophetic Scripture is to be treated in a similar manner. All prophecy must be fulfilled literally and in detail.”


    Dispensational Eschatology

    My understanding of the major teachings of the dispensationalists on the return of Jesus Christ and the Book of Revelation are presented below. May I say that though I do debate vigorously the issues related to the Second Coming God will determine in His own good time when and how He will bring all things to fruition.

    1. The dispensational approach to eschatology [the doctrine of last things] is founded principally on interpretation of the Old Testament [Hermon Hoyt in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints by Clouse, page 67, quoting from John F. Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom].

    2. Dispensationalism teaches that the Church will be removed from the earth suddenly [by an ‘any-moment’ return of Jesus Christ] prior to the ‘so-called’ seven years of tribulation[17].

    3. Therefore, the Dispensationalist insists that only the first three chapters of Revelation are applicable to the Church. Chapters 4-19 describe the events that occur during the seven years of tribulation and are thus of no concern to the Church but of primary concern to the nation Israel.

    4. At the beginning of the seven year period the head of the revived Roman Empire will make a covenant with the Jews [based on the dispensational interpretation of Daniel 9:27]. In the midst of this period this leader will break the covenant and ban sacrifices in the rebuilt temple. Intense persecution of the Jews will follow. During this seven year period the majority of the Jewish people will embrace Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Also vast numbers of Gentiles will be saved under the preaching of 144,000 Jewish missionaries.

    5. Dispensationalism teaches that at the end of the seven year tribulation period Jesus Christ will return to earth in power and great glory and reign for 1000 years with a ‘rod of iron’ from ‘David's throne’ in Jerusalem. During this period of time Satan will be bound and imprisoned in the bottomless pit. Those who enter the millennial kingdom will be believing Jews and Gentiles, all others will be put to death. Walvoord teaches in Major Bible Prophecies that David will reign as coregent with Jesus Christ in the millennial kingdom. He writes [page 393] “Though many have tried to explain away this passage [Ezekiel 37:24-25], it obviously requires the second coming of Christ, the establishment of David’s kingdom on earth, the resurrection of David, and David’s sharing the throne of Israel as coregent with Christ.”

    6. Some dispensationalists teach that during this 1000 year period the Gentile nations will be subservient to Israel and that all people will come to Jerusalem to worship in the rebuilt temple through burnt offerings which are supposedly only ‘memorial in nature’. During this period people will be born and die, some saved and some not[18].

    7. Some dispensationalists teach that during this 1000 year period the Church will apparently be suspended above the earth in the New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21. Some contend that the tribulation Saints and the Old Testament Saints will be resurrected and join the Church in the New Jerusalem.

    8. At the end of the millennium Satan will be released from the pit, he and his followers will suffer final defeat. Included among his followers will be people who are unbelievers? that are born during the millennium.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I won't critique OR's post about dispensationalism. I will add to it to say that dispensationalism has three sine qua non.

    1) The fundamental distinction between Israel and the Church.
    2) The consistent use of the literal hermeneutic (not as misunderstood as OR might indicate).
    3) The glory of God as the goal of human history.

    I would recommend reading Ryrie's Dispensationalism[/]i and Shower's There Really Is A Difference as starting points. I would also caution against getting a view of dispensationalism from anyone who repeatedly invokes Darby or Scofield. Dispensationalists have long since moved past their formative work and refined it. As an example, OT quotes the Scofield Bible's definition as "a period of time." Most have refined that definition away from teh idea of time to the idea of economy.

    Here is a simple definition to consider: Dispensationalism is an apporach to understanding the Bible in terms of the unfolding revelation of God which results in different stewardships of responsibility on the part of man.

    Working through that will get one started on understanding what dispensationalism holds.

    Lastly, I would caution not to confuse what dispensationalism teaches and what some dispensationalists teach. For instance, as with covenant theology, dispensationalism is not monolithic. You will find various opinions about certain things. You will also find aberrant views of things in dispensationalism, such as some who teach OT saints were saved by faith plus works. That is an example of what some dispensationalists teach that is not really dispensationalism.
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I won't quote on P L's post other than to say, for those who don't read Latin, that sine qua non means the absolutely indispensible part.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Good thinking OR ... [​IMG]
     
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