Easier?

[Skandelon]

Mark,

Being wealthy leads one to pride and often being self-sufficient. They don't feel that they need any help. This is what affects them negatively making it more difficult for them to 'humble themselves so as to be exalted' as scripture teaches. "You can't serve two masters..."

This is also why Jesus points to becoming like a child. If Calvinism is true then what difference is a child from anyone else? They are born just as 'totally depraved' as any other person if Calvinism is true. The difference is that a child has not grown hardened and calloused by the sin and rebellion of this world. Yes, he is an enemy in need of reconciliation but his heart hasn't yet grown hardened. He is OPEN to hearing and responding (that is true in scripture and experience)

Also, why does Paul refer to his hope to save hardened Jews by provoking them to envy in Romans 11:14? How is provoking their wills by envy going to help save them if they were born unchosen reprobates?

And why does Jesus speak in parables to prevent the scribes from repenting and being healed if they are born totally unable to repent and believe from birth as Calvinism teaches? (ref. Mark 4; Matt 13)

 

[Mark_13]

Mark,

Being wealthy leads one to pride and often being self-sufficient. They don't feel that they need any help. This is what affects them negatively making it more difficult for them to 'humble themselves so as to be exalted' as scripture teaches. "You can't serve two masters..."

This is also why Jesus points to becoming like a child. If Calvinism is true then what difference is a child from anyone else? They are born just as 'totally depraved' as any other person if Calvinism is true. The difference is that a child has not grown hardened and calloused by the sin and rebellion of this world. Yes, he is an enemy in need of reconciliation but his heart hasn't yet grown hardened. He is OPEN to hearing and responding (that is true in scripture and experience)

Also, why does Paul refer to his hope to save hardened Jews by provoking them to envy in Romans 11:14? How is provoking their wills by envy going to help save them if they were born unchosen reprobates?

And why does Jesus speak in parables to prevent the scribes from repenting and being healed if they are born totally unable to repent and believe from birth as Calvinism teaches? (ref. Mark 4; Matt 13)

Job Chapter 21 and Psalms 73 both are indicative of the sort of passages from the O.T. I was trying to think of wherein God specifically arranges it for certain people to have good fortune and happiness to preoccupy them so they will not come to repentance, so they will not seek after him, so that he can demonstrate his righteousness by ultimately passing judgment on them eternally. God is somehow also glorified by demonstrating his righteousness on the objects of his wrath. There has to be objects like this for God to demonstrate his righteousness. But neither one of those passages is the one I am thinking of - still haven't found it. But even in Job 21:16, it says their prosperity is not in their own hand.

---------------

You ask why does Jesus say become like a child if we're all born lost. I wasn't aware that calvinism ascribed to baby's going to hell but not sure I do.

Your'e asking why Paul was making efforts to win people over like the Jews by various strategems such as provoking them to envy. This is directly related to the whole idea of why Paul or anyone makes any effort at all if everything is predestined. That's all you're really asking. The fact that Paul expended effort - blood, sweat and tears - for the sake of the kingdom of God, shows what side he's on, whether or not the outcome is set in advance. (which it is). The effort Paul made was to his eternal credit, by the grace of God. Prayer, toil, the death of martyrs, these are all quite real and quite valuable to God, regardless that he knows the outcome.

-----------------

My whole position on this (whether its called Calvinism or whatever) extends directly and straightforwardly by inference from God's attributes of omniscience and omnipotence. Either you get it or you don't. I have no idea why so many people such as you don't get it.

 

[Mark_13]

And why does Jesus speak in parables to prevent the scribes from repenting and being healed if they are born totally unable to repent and believe from birth as Calvinism teaches? (ref. Mark 4; Matt 13)

Let me hit this point as well:

I would say that everyone is born incapable of repenting unless the right set of circumstances arise in our lives that enables us to do so. The pharisees were following their natural course, in fact that they continue to do so was necessary fort Christ to be crucified. I think its clear from Christ's statements regarding the parables that he could have arranged it for all to be saved but did not, and continued with that plan. Don't see the conundrum you're implying here or inconsistency with Calvinism.

--------------
iow - You evidently don't see how God's sovereignty extends to events as they unfold in this world. If such events lead inexorably to someone's salvation, then it equates to God just handpicking them before they were even born. He understood in advance how people would be influenced by events in their lives, what they would do as a result, and so on. The events in this world play a part. Sure, its ultimately all a play on a stage - admittedly - but the death is real, the pain is real, the joy is real.

 

[Mark_13]

In a way, I think Satan's whole agenda is to show that free will exists - that he is a free agent and can do something that God doesn't control. That is why sometimes I see something insidious in the noncal position.

 

[jonathan.borland]

In a way, I think Satan's whole agenda is to show that free will exists - that he is a free agent and can do something that God doesn't control. That is why sometimes I see something insidious in the noncal position.

That is nonsense, since Satan's agenda cannot change anything. Let him fool the whole world into believing in free will, who gives, since it doesn't change a blame thing, right? Nonsense!

 

[convicted1]

I agree with Bro. Skan's assessment about Jesus speaking to the Jews in parables. If they were dead and unable to hear, let alone respond, speaking to them in parables would be at best, a moot point.

You can't have differing levels of "dead", "deaf", etc.

 

[Winman]

This post answered the question. Well stated.

It did not answer the question at all. If men are elected unconditionally before they are even born, being rich or poor has no bearing over whether they will be saved. And if the elect are called by effectual and irresistible grace, no love of riches or any other factor will prevent them from being saved.

Icon's post agrees with the non-Cal view and refutes the Cal positiion.

 

[Winman]

I just want to back away a bit from my own interpretation starting in #23, to the effect its hard for everyone to enter the Kingdom of God, as for example even Acts 14:22 says that verbatim. And also, certainly there is a sense in Christ's discourse in which it being hard for the rich is emblematic of it being hard for everybody, at least its clear that's how the Apostles were interpreting what he was saying. And also passages like in Act 14 above clearly depict salvation as a process extending over time. However, Christ does say above that everyone who has left all their possessions like this for the sake of the Kingdom will receive eternal life, and clearly that is something that would be difficult the more rich you are. But Christ says flat out its so hard as to be effectively impossible. So that's the crux of it - he doesn't say its hard - he says its impossible.

So how does it being impossible for certain people to be saved contradict Calvinism.

As far as the rich there is a passage in the Old Testament, actually a handful, where it talks about the wealthy and godless, and how God occupies them with gladness of heart specifically so they won't ever come to repentance. As soon as I find it I will post it.

If Calvinism is true, it is not difficult for the elect to be saved at all. They will be effectually called by irresistible grace. It is the easiest thing in the world for them to be saved, in fact, they cannot resist it.

You are desperately trying to make Calvinism work, when it cannot. Jesus was specifically speaking of rich people in this passage. The rich young ruler went away sorrowful because he had great possessions which he was not willing to give up to be saved. Jesus said "How hardly" do they that have "riches" enter the kingdom of heaven, and that it would be "easier" for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a "rich man" to enter heaven. Jesus was not speaking of all men, he was speaking of the rich.

This makes no sense if Unconditional Election is true. It would not make one bit of difference if you are rich or poor if God chose you before you were born. You are going to get saved no matter what. It has been determined, and if Irresistible Grace is true, you cannot resist it. It is the easiest thing in the world if you are the elect, God does it all for you.

This scripture refutes Calvinism. You can try to reconcile this scripture all you want, it won't work.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

In a way, I think Satan's whole agenda is to show that free will exists - that he is a free agent and can do something that God doesn't control. That is why sometimes I see something insidious in the noncal position.

Oh, my God. Yes, beware because you might actually come to see that man is not a puppet and God is not a puppetmaster.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

[snipped - inflammatory and personal. Stick to the topic.]

 

[HankD]

If Calvinism is true, it is not difficult for the elect to be saved at all. They will be effectually called by irresistible grace. It is the easiest thing in the world for them to be saved, in fact, they cannot resist it.

You are desperately trying to make Calvinism work, when it cannot. Jesus was specifically speaking of rich people in this passage. The rich young ruler went away sorrowful because he had great possessions which he was not willing to give up to be saved. Jesus said "How hardly" do they that have "riches" enter the kingdom of heaven, and that it would be "easier" for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a "rich man" to enter heaven. Jesus was not speaking of all men, he was speaking of the rich.

This makes no sense if Unconditional Election is true. It would not make one bit of difference if you are rich or poor if God chose you before you were born. You are going to get saved no matter what. It has been determined, and if Irresistible Grace is true, you cannot resist it. It is the easiest thing in the world if you are the elect, God does it all for you.

This scripture refutes Calvinism. You can try to reconcile this scripture all you want, it won't work.

For the benefit of the debate:

The difficulty is on the part of the "elect" and obviously not upon God's ability to save rich or poor.

The more a man has and/or the greater his pride the greater the sense or perception of pain and suffering when God removes his defenses (religion, pride, fame, fortune, etc...) burdening him under the conviction of sin.

While being reproved of sin the heart is weighted down learning for the first time of one's desperate condition.

Luke 18

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.​

Yes, the reflexive "humbleth himself" is used because this is where conviction of sin leads as it is designed to do.

"Irresistable grace" carries the sinner through to the penultimate of conviction of sin - justification.

Luke 11

21 When astrong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.​

Example:
Acts 9:5 And he (Paul) said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.​

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:​

Those who are "chosen" do not necessarily come to Christ quickly but often are burdened under a painful sense of their sin caused by the Spirit of God driving them to Christ for relief.

Matthew 11

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

HankD​

 

[annsni]

Those who are arguing against Calvinism here are not in fact arguing against Calvinism but HyperCalvinism. That is the big issue. This will continue to be at a standoff until tose arguing against it understand that.

 

[jonathan.borland]

I have a confession to make. I just became a Calvinist.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Just kidding.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I have to agree with Winman

If salvation is based on man making a choice between earthly riches or heavenly riches, then unconditional election is not possible.

Clearly, Jesus is asking this rich man to make a cloice, just like He does to us today.

John

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Let me try to get the argument here straight.

Poor people can come to Christ by their own free will, but rich people can't because it's harder for them than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, which is obviouly impossible.

So in order for any rich people to get into heaven at all, there has to be irresistible grace (Mark 10:27), but only for them. So it's Calvinism for rich people and Arminianism for the poor.

OK. I've got it now. :thumbs: That makes perfect sense. :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let me try to get the argument here straight.

Poor people can come to Christ by their own free will, but rich people can't because it's harder for them than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, which is obviouly impossible.

So in order for any rich people to get into heaven at all, there has to be irresistible grace (Mark 10:27), but only for them. So it's Calvinism for rich people and Arminianism for the poor.

OK. I've got it now. :thumbs: That makes perfect sense. :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

Then what are the Uber Rich, atheists?

 

[convicted1]

Let me try to get the argument here straight.

Poor people can come to Christ by their own free will, but rich people can't because it's harder for them than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, which is obviouly impossible.

So in order for any rich people to get into heaven at all, there has to be irresistible grace (Mark 10:27), but only for them. So it's Calvinism for rich people and Arminianism for the poor.

OK. I've got it now. :thumbs: That makes perfect sense. :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

FTR, a homeless person with one penny could be "rich" in the eyes of God. It's not how much $$$$ any of us have, but how much pride we have in our hearts.

 

[convicted1]

Then what are the Uber Rich, atheists?

One thing's for certain, I'll never become an atheist this way...:laugh:

 

[revmwc]

Since God elected people because of the choice he knew they would make before they were ever born, then what is the issue?
Christ said it is a hard decision for a rich person to give up the world and follow Him. Christ knew the choice that rich young ruler would make before He ever told him what He did. The Father basis a persons election upon His FOREKNOWLEDGE of the choice they would make. He knew in eternity past the choice each of us would make and elected us according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE.
You say God didn't see our Choices that way, really? The you are limiting God's Omnicience, He wouldn't be an all knowing God if you say His FOREKNOWLEDGE wouldn't include the choices we would make when it came to Turst in Christ.
Genesis 25: 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
God knew exactly how these two would turn out before they were born. He knew the choices Esau and Jacob would make.

Christ knew the thoughts of those who opposed Him,
Luke 6:8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.

John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Again Jesus knew them, He knew their thoughts and choices.

God knew us before the foundation of the world and chose us based on his foreknowledge:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Since God knew Adam would choose to disobey in the Garden, God made a decision for mankinds salvation Peter tells us in 1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Chrsit Foreordained Christ before the foundation of the world based on His foreknowledge of mans fall and He elected us according to that same foreknowledge 1 Peter 1:2 Tells us.