Eastern Christian traditions

[APuritanMindset]

Is Western Christianity the only right "version" of Christianity or is the Eastern tradition of Christianity (Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc.) valid as well? If you hold that Eastern Christian tradition is not valid, please explain why.

 

[Johnv]

In this arena, I'm a believer of "Let each be convinced in his own mind".

 

[Gold Dragon]

I think there is a lot that both the Eastern and Western traditions of Christianity could teach each other if we had teachable hearts.

 

[bapmom]

Isn't Eastern Orthodox just a remake of Catholicism? I will admit that Im not all that familiar with them, but I always have had the impression that it was just an eastern form of Catholic.

 

[Kiffen]

Eastern Orthodoxy has it's own unique tradition in that the Eastern Church was never under Rome. Their Patriarch in Constantinople is more similar to the Arch Bishop of Canterbury than a pope.

Eastern Orthodoxy also rejects Transubstatiation, Purgatory, Indulgences and the Immaculate Conception which Rome holds. Eastern Orthodoxy never had the Bible phobia that Rome had either.


Eastern Orthodoxy unfortunately like Rome sees man as cooperating with God to achieve his salvation but then again so does Arminian theology to an extent. Eastern Orthodoxy also seems to have a weaker view of original sin than either Protestantism or Rome. Eastern Orthodox theology and liturgy tends to heavily emphasize the Resurrected and Glorified Christ and His victory at the Cross while Protestant and Roman Catholic theology and liturgy tends to heavily emphasize Christ suffering on the Cross and the Ransom for sinners more so than the Eastern Church.

It is hard to say if Eastern Orthodoxy is closer to Rome or Protestantism in that their overall theology is so different.

 

[bapmom]

Then the only real basis for saying anythng is the "right" form of Christianity would be in whether or not it teaches the true Gospel, right?

I don't believe that any form of church that incorporates a pope figure is doing things properly, that doesn't mean that Id assume they are teaching a false doctrine on Christ. Id have to see what they believe.

But if they add works, then Eastern OR Western dosen't matter, its not a proper form of Christianity.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by bapmom:
Then the only real basis for saying anythng is the "right" form of Christianity would be in whether or not it teaches the true Gospel, right?

I don't believe that any form of church that incorporates a pope figure is doing things properly, that doesn't mean that Id assume they are teaching a false doctrine on Christ. Id have to see what they believe.

But if they add works, then Eastern OR Western dosen't matter, its not a proper form of Christianity.

The EOC does have a heirarchy but does not have a single pope-like leader. EOC governance is divided by state where Russia would have a holy synod which is a board of bishops and lay people who governs the Russian Orthodox Church.

The authority that higher levels of the heirarchy has over individual churches does have some similarities to the congregational model used by Baptists.

Here is the Salvation portion of the wikipedia entry of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Wikipedia : Eastern Orthodox Church
...
Salvation

Man, in Orthodox belief, was originally created perfect, but through his own actions he embraced evil through disobedience to God. Because of Man's fall he was condemned, when he died, to go to Hell (Hades); it is believed that from Adam to St. John the Baptist, all men went to a place of separation from God. But when Jesus came into the world he himself was Perfect Man and Perfect God united. Through his participation in humanity, human nature was changed allowing human beings to participate in the divine nature. This process of changing human nature worked retroactive back to the beginning of time, saving all of those who came before, back to Adam. Salvation, or "being saved," therefore, refers to this process of being saved from the fate of separation from God. It is a distinct concept separate from the concept of "going to heaven." The Orthodox have always maintained that salvation belongs to all mankind and membership in the Orthodox Church is not required, however, it also maintains that the best and most complete path to participation in the gifts of God are spelled out by the Orthodox Church alone.

The Orthodox believe that there is nothing that a person can do to earn entrance into Heaven. It is rather a gift from God, who wants nothing more than to restore the original relationship with mankind. However, such a gift has to be desired by the believer, God does not force Heaven on humanity. Man is free to reject it when offered by God.

The ultimate goal of the Orthodox Christian is to achieve theosis, or Union with God. This is sometimes expressed thus: "God became Man so that Man might become God." This process is a "Goal" that is seldom reached by humans, but some have done it. Some of the greatest saints have achieved, in this life, a measure of the next. Of course, the individual who achieves theosis never realizes his accomplishment, as his perfect humility keeps him blind to pride.

Here is an excerpt from a Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission quoted from the Sola Fide entry in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia : Sola Fide

Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission

5.... Regarding the way in which salvation is appropriated by the believers, Lutherans, by teaching that justification and salvation are by grace alone through faith (sola gratia, sola fide), stress the absolute priority of divine grace in salvation. When they speak about saving faith they do not think of the dead faith which even the demons have (cf. James 2:19), but the faith which Abraham showed and which was reckoned to him as righteousness (cf. Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3,9). The Orthodox also affirm the absolute priority of divine grace. They underline that it is God's grace which enables our human will to conform to the divine will (cf. Phil 2:13) in the steps of Jesus praying, "not as I will but as You will" (Matt. 26:39), so that we may work out our salvation in fear and trembling (cf. Phil. 2:12). This is what the Orthodox mean by "synergy" (working together) of divine grace and the human will of the believer in the appropriation of the divine life in Christ. The understanding of synergy in salvation is helped by the fact that the human will in the one person of Christ was not abolished when the human nature was united in Him with the divine nature, according to the Christological decisions of the Ecumenical Councils. While Lutherans do not use the concept of synergy, they recognize the personal responsibility of the human being in the acceptance or refusal of divine grace through faith, and in the growth of faith and obedience to God. Lutherans and Orthodox both understand good works as the fruits and manifestations of the believer's faith and not as a means of salvation.
Salvation : Grace, Justification, and Synergy, 9th Plenary of the Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission, Sigtuna, 7 August 1998

 

[APuritanMindset]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bapmom:
Then the only real basis for saying anythng is the "right" form of Christianity would be in whether or not it teaches the true Gospel, right?

I don't believe that any form of church that incorporates a pope figure is doing things properly, that doesn't mean that Id assume they are teaching a false doctrine on Christ. Id have to see what they believe.

But if they add works, then Eastern OR Western dosen't matter, its not a proper form of Christianity.

The EOC does have a heirarchy but does not have a single pope-like leader. EOC governance is divided by state where Russia would have a holy synod which is a board of bishops and lay people who governs the Russian Orthodox Church.

The authority that higher levels of the heirarchy has over individual churches does have some similarities to the congregational model used by Baptists.

Here is the Salvation portion of the wikipedia entry of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Wikipedia : Eastern Orthodox Church
...
Salvation

Man, in Orthodox belief, was originally created perfect, but through his own actions he embraced evil through disobedience to God. Because of Man's fall he was condemned, when he died, to go to Hell (Hades); it is believed that from Adam to St. John the Baptist, all men went to a place of separation from God. But when Jesus came into the world he himself was Perfect Man and Perfect God united. Through his participation in humanity, human nature was changed allowing human beings to participate in the divine nature. This process of changing human nature worked retroactive back to the beginning of time, saving all of those who came before, back to Adam. Salvation, or "being saved," therefore, refers to this process of being saved from the fate of separation from God. It is a distinct concept separate from the concept of "going to heaven." The Orthodox have always maintained that salvation belongs to all mankind and membership in the Orthodox Church is not required, however, it also maintains that the best and most complete path to participation in the gifts of God are spelled out by the Orthodox Church alone.

The Orthodox believe that there is nothing that a person can do to earn entrance into Heaven. It is rather a gift from God, who wants nothing more than to restore the original relationship with mankind. However, such a gift has to be desired by the believer, God does not force Heaven on humanity. Man is free to reject it when offered by God.

The ultimate goal of the Orthodox Christian is to achieve theosis, or Union with God. This is sometimes expressed thus: "God became Man so that Man might become God." This process is a "Goal" that is seldom reached by humans, but some have done it. Some of the greatest saints have achieved, in this life, a measure of the next. Of course, the individual who achieves theosis never realizes his accomplishment, as his perfect humility keeps him blind to pride.

Here is an excerpt from a Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission quoted from the Sola Fide entry in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia : Sola Fide

Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission

5.... Regarding the way in which salvation is appropriated by the believers, Lutherans, by teaching that justification and salvation are by grace alone through faith (sola gratia, sola fide), stress the absolute priority of divine grace in salvation. When they speak about saving faith they do not think of the dead faith which even the demons have (cf. James 2:19), but the faith which Abraham showed and which was reckoned to him as righteousness (cf. Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3,9). The Orthodox also affirm the absolute priority of divine grace. They underline that it is God's grace which enables our human will to conform to the divine will (cf. Phil 2:13) in the steps of Jesus praying, "not as I will but as You will" (Matt. 26:39), so that we may work out our salvation in fear and trembling (cf. Phil. 2:12). This is what the Orthodox mean by "synergy" (working together) of divine grace and the human will of the believer in the appropriation of the divine life in Christ. The understanding of synergy in salvation is helped by the fact that the human will in the one person of Christ was not abolished when the human nature was united in Him with the divine nature, according to the Christological decisions of the Ecumenical Councils. While Lutherans do not use the concept of synergy, they recognize the personal responsibility of the human being in the acceptance or refusal of divine grace through faith, and in the growth of faith and obedience to God. Lutherans and Orthodox both understand good works as the fruits and manifestations of the believer's faith and not as a means of salvation.
Salvation : Grace, Justification, and Synergy, 9th Plenary of the Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission, Sigtuna, 7 August 1998

</font>[/QUOTE]So, basically, the EOC's view of Salvation is pretty similar to the Western church's view, they just use some words differently than we do to explain it?

 

[bapmom]

Orthodox also seems to hold to the viewpoint that only those within the Orthodox church are going to reach Heaven.....or perhaps that only they have a CHANCE to reach Heaven.

Is that what the part about "theosis" was saying?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by bapmom:
Orthodox also seems to hold to the viewpoint that only those within the Orthodox church are going to reach Heaven.....or perhaps that only they have a CHANCE to reach Heaven.

Is that what the part about "theosis" was saying?

No. I think the best protestant equivalent to theosis would be sanctification.

 

[tenor]

Originally posted by bapmom:
I don't believe that any form of church that incorporates a pope figure is doing things properly, that doesn't mean that Id assume they are teaching a false doctrine on Christ. Id have to see what they believe.

Actually, there are many "unofficial popes" in Baptist life. It depends on the person. Bascically, the Pope, Patriarch, etc. are elected leaders of the denomination.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by APuritanMindset:
So, basically, the EOC's view of Salvation is pretty similar to the Western church's view, they just use some words differently than we do to explain it?

There are several different western views of soteriology so it is difficult to say that the EOC view is similar to the western view. Which western view? I would say the EOC view is similar in many ways but different in many ways to some western views.

 

[bapmom]

tenor,

I think I know what you mean, but when Im talking about "pope" Im using it here in the Catholic sense.....one who is the Vicar of Christ for his people.

I don't think this is paralleled in Baptist circles.

 

[JackRUS]

I know a deacon from my former church that used to witness to some men from the Eastern Orthodox Church, and they held to a works + faith false gospel. And like Catholicism they believe in baptismal regeneration.

Here is some info on that religion:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/orthodoxy.html

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/eastern.htm

And if any of you are up on your current events, you know that the Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia is actively against the Gospel. If that isn't a red flag, I don't know what is.

http://www.raptureready.com/resource/hunt/dh7.html

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by Kiffen:
It is hard to say if Eastern Orthodoxy is closer to Rome or Protestantism in that their overall theology is so different.

You have made some good points, but there is no question that Orthodoxy is very similar to Catholicism in its basic theology. The Orthodox, by and large, are more reticent to try to explain the mysteries of God in human language (the Real Presence is an example — they believe it but decline to try to say how exactly it occurs) than the Latin Rite.

The early Reformers tried to reach some accommodation with the Orthodox, but the effort foundered upon deep theological differences. Their major point of agreement, it seems, was disagreement with the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Kiffen]

You have made some good points, but there is no question that Orthodoxy is very similar to Catholicism in its basic theology. The Orthodox, by and large, are more reticent to try to explain the mysteries of God in human language (the Real Presence is an example — they believe it but decline to try to say how exactly it occurs) than the Latin Rite.

Hi rsr. Eastern Orthodox like to say that Roman Catholicism and Protestanism are the flip sides of the same coin and view Western Christianity as rationalistic. They attack the RCC Transub as trying to explain the Real Presence. In fairness to the teaching of the Real Presence, only the Zwinglian school in Protestanism denies it. Even the 1689 London Baptist confession affirms a real presence in the Supper though it is Calvin's spiritual presence argument.

It might be argued that the Eastern Orthodox view on the Supper is more similar to the Lutheran view BUT I think that is not accurate. The Eastern Orthodox just refuse to define the Real Presence but just simply say the Bread and Cup are the Body and Blood of Christ and trying to explain it like Roman Catholicism and Protestanism do is an error. I think their view of Communion is unigue unto their own selves.

I do think you are correct however that Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism are similar when it comes to salvation in saying that we cooperate with the Grace of God to achieve salvation. Traditional Protestanism denies any cooperation but affirms that it is by God's grace alone through Faith in Christ alone that man is saved. On the other hand, Arminian Free will theology at times teaches a cooperation with the Grace of God to achieve salvation.

 

[nate]

I like the Eastern Church a great deal more than the RC.I have done some limited reading on the church but like the fact they never outlawed their people from having the Bible to me this is the gravest error mankind can make to keep God's Word from the people when one has God's Word it doesn't matter what he is taught the Spirit of God can convict and use the Word powerfully.