The Biblicist
This is crystal clear and is at the heart of the issue.:thumbs::wavey:
[/QUOTE]
This is crystal clear and is at the heart of the issue.:thumbs::wavey:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
"Easy-beievism"
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Jacob_Elliott
New Member
This is crystal clear and is at the heart of the issue.:thumbs::wavey:[/QUOTE]
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Seeing as you have no children (I have 8) you probably do not know children cannot actually speak when they are born. In fact, they cannot speak at least until they are a year old. Most children do not start putting words together until they are around 2 years old. And guess what? They always speak the same language as their parents! Always! This shows they learn to speak from their parents, which is also where they learn to lie.
Seeing how you parrot the same proof text that all Calvinists quote shows me you do not actually think, you just parrot what you are told.
Psa 58:3 is called hyperbole and should not be taken literally. It is also not speaking of all men, but only especially wicked persons. The same Psalm speaks of God's people who trust in him.
Learn to think.
Last edited by a moderator:
saturneptune
New Member
Last edited by a moderator:
preacher4truth
Active Member
:thumbs: :applause:
Exactly, that is what my question addressed. Obviously they cannot answer it so they resort to those other tactics.
preacher4truth
Active Member
If sanctification is missing, then there was no justification. Thus no one is mixing the two up, they go together like a fit glove and cannot be separated into categories of mandatory and optional.
Actually SN we do care where it comes from, and what the cause of true faith is. When we understand that we see the exact opposite of easy-believism.
This only some of us know.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yep it sure is. Maybe it's so clear they're looking right through it without seeing it, or, maybe they just won't answer it as it gives credence to a truth they don't want to admit to. :thumbs:
quantumfaith
Active Member
Psalms 51:5 (ESV) "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."
Gen 8:21 (NIV) The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Jer 17:9 (ESV) the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it.
These verses all seem to teach Original Sin and Total Depravity. Man is born a sinner. Man does not "become a sinner" Man is born a sinner. You deny Total Depravity, but have you for once actually read the Bible in context and not let your Arminianism infiltrate your lens?
I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. I have KNOWN the name Jesus Christ, side by side with the names Mary, Peter, Paul, John, Christopher, and a host of other names preceded by Saint growing up. I have been told time and again that Jesus is both God, and Man, the Son of God, will judge the living and the dead, along with the teachings on auricular confession, papal infallibility, the eucharist, etc.
Does THAT belief make me a Christian ? Does THAT belief condemn me to hell ?
Then along the way I became a member of a cult. following my biological mother, that taught salvation is to be a member of the church, THEIR church, and Jesus Christ was not God, just a special man with a special mission from God.
BUT DEEP IN MY HEART I rejected that, because in my heart of hearts, I KNEW Jesus is God, AND man.
Then, further down, bitter experiences in life shooed me to Marxism and armed struggle and EVERYTHING that came with it, and I became an atheist, or so I thought.
Until one day, when I walked into a Baptist church and heard the preaching of the gospel in a way I have never heard it preached by organized religions, and I WANTED TO KNOW THAT CHRIST, not the one I grew up on as a Catholic.
and they were giving away new testaments to those who would come forward and "accept" Christ as their Lord and Savior, and so I did, because it was the New Testament I wanted, because it has the information I needed about THAT CHRIST.
So somebody takes me to a room and "deals" Scriptures to me and I go through the motions and fairly snatched the New Testament from the preacher's hand and went home and read it cover to cover in less than a week, and after I was done I KNEW in my heart if Jesus came that minute I'm out of this world and into His AND N
NE TAUGHT ME THAT, not as a Catholic, not as a cult member, and certainly not in the kitchen where I secretly read that New Testament because I was embarrassed to have my wife see this tough as nails atheist reading the book he professed to hate.So tell me, DHK, when was I saved ?
Had I died anytime during that miserable existence, do you think I was hellbound ?
Saved from what, DHK.
Saved from the fires of hell ?
Let's exchange roles for a moment, let's say you, instead of I, believe that from before the foundation of the world, God elected you unto salvation, along with a humanly INNUMERABLE HOST OF HUMANITY, and all your names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life, because it was the purpose and intent of the God who created you, for you to be with Him for all eternity, thru the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.
Would you believe you had ever been bound for hell even if you HAD to be born unregenerate being of the humanly fallen seed of Adam ?
Last edited by a moderator:
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
"Seem to" being the key words. Win is right. All you do is parrot others. You don't think for yourself. In fact, I don't know a single Calvinist on this board who actually "thought through" the process. They all parrot someone else.
I echo, "Learn to think."
preacher4truth
Active Member
What a bunch of total nonsense. John thinks for himself and so do others. Put an end to your condescending personal attacks.
When I was confronted with these truths, it was God and His Word that convinced me, and I had read up to that point nothing on the doctrine other than what was in the Word. There are many more on this board who had a similar experience.
Your post is nothing but ad hominem drivel. 'Learn to grow up'.
HungryInherit
New Member
Yes, belief is all that it takes. Jesus Christ died for the sins of human beings. The gift of salvation was never offered to demons because they aren't humans.
Up to this point your experience parallels mine. I also was born and raised a Roman Catholic. Does THAT belief condemn you to hell? Had you died at that time, yes, you would have gone to hell. You acknowledged that yourself.
Note your own rejection; your own unbelief; your resistance to the Holy Spirit, etc. This is not Calvinism. You chose to reject Christ. Had you died at this point you would not be one of "the elect," so-called. The responsibility is on you to choose Christ as your Savior. It is only of the mercy of God that he extended the length of your life and arranged the circumstances of your life so that you were able to do that.
I don't know, but you ought to. When were you married? Do you remember that occasion? I certainly remember when I got married--who I got married to; the people that were there (most of them), the one who married us, the place, the time, etc. It was an important event.Until one day, when I walked into a Baptist church and heard the preaching of the gospel in a way I have never heard it preached by organized religions, and I WANTED TO KNOW THAT CHRIST, not the one I grew up on as a Catholic.
and they were giving away new testaments to those who would come forward and "accept" Christ as their Lord and Savior, and so I did, because it was the New Testament I wanted, because it has the information I needed about THAT CHRIST.
So somebody takes me to a room and "deals" Scriptures to me and I go through the motions and fairly snatched the New Testament from the preacher's hand and went home and read it cover to cover in less than a week, and after I was done I KNEW in my heart if Jesus came that minute I'm out of this world and into His AND N
So tell me, DHK, when was I saved ?
Had I died anytime during that miserable existence, do you think I was hellbound ?
I also remember a far more important event--when I became a part of the bride of Christ; when He became my bridegroom, who was there, the date, time, place, what happened. It is an important event in my life. I should be able to remember it.
I am sure the Philippian jailer remembered the time of his salvation, as the Ethiopian Eunuch did his. They were both very eventful days.
As a devout Catholic, I never heard the gospel presented in the Catholic Church. The first time I did hear it was through a couple of students on the campus of a university working with an interdenominational Christian organization. They shared with me the gospel from the NT, as I have never heard it before. They made it personal. Yes, I knew the facts: that Christ died, was buried and rose again. But to make the application--it was for my sins that he paid the penalty; I was the sinner that needed to be saved, etc. After understanding the scriptures they explained, I prayed and trusted Christ as my Savior. I have never looked back since.
"He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son of God has not life."
I know that I have the Son; I know I have life. It is that simple.
I don't have to look to Calvinism, election, the doctrines of grace, etc. I never heard of these things until I got to Bible College. It is Christ that saves.
Yes, and much more. The wages of sin is death. Death is separation, eternal separation from God. I was saved from being eternally separated from Christ.
I can handle that belief. But it is not important to the unsaved, or a new believer. It is meat and not milk. Like I mentioned, I never started studying such things until I got to Bible College, and I am glad that I didn't.
There is not much difference in that belief than in Catholicism, looking at it from one that is a new believer. One is born a Catholic and only if he remains a Catholic will he enter heaven.
Biblical salvation requires man to use his mind and make a choice. He must choose whether or not to receive him or reject him--as you once did in your own life.
Thanks brother. The fact that I read books from both Reformed & Arminian, listen to podcasts from both, am on blogs, and message boards indicates that I do know how to think for myself. If I could not do this, I would be like many I know that do not read, nor listen to anything but their pastor. Sadly my wife does not read anything but IFB materials and or what the pastor recommends. I am working on her. Rome was not built in a day.
preacher4truth
Active Member
You're still in our prayers. Avoid those who cause dissension and division as you've witnessed here. Love your wife like Christ loves the church, and be patient with her. Trust God in your journey and continue to grow. :thumbsup:
DHK'2069707 said:
Here's what I said: Then along the way I became a member of a cult. following my biological mother, that taught salvation is to be a member of the church, THEIR church, and Jesus Christ was not God, just a special man with a special mission from God.
THAT is what I rejected.
Why do you need to take statements out of context just so you can disprove the doctrine of election ? I HAVE NOT REJECTED CHRIST. Not as God-Man, not as anything that I learned about Him under Roman Catholicism.
PLEASE, do not misrepresent what I say.
DHK'2069707 said:
On the contrary, everything points to my being one of God's elect, even beyond this point, on to my embrace of atheism.
In fact, I am strongly inclined to say that at some point in my childhood, God quickened me, because the sight of my paternal grandmother taking me to the cathedral so she could kiss the hand of a wooden black nazarene made me rebel to the point of my one day asking her if Jesus is in heaven, then why is he always shown as dead ?
DHK'2069707 said:
There is where I part ways with most of you here on this board, even of those of my own earthly family.
Yours is based on experience, remembrance.
Without them you cannot trust God's mercy and grace, though you speak of these from the other side of your mouth.
Unarguably, salvation is an eventful time.
It was an eventful time for me when I realized that DESPITE WHAT I HAVE BEEN, WHAT EVILS I HAVE COMMITTED, God's mercy had always been far deeper and greater than all of them combined a thousand times.
It was an eventful time for me when the New Testament I read showed me that all the laws of God I've broken were laid on Christ.
It was an eventful time for me when the Spirit revealed to me, in that kitchen where I read that New Testament page to page in less than a week, that if the trumpet had sounded that very first hour I began to read, I would be taken up.
It was an eventful time for my wife when I told her we were going to church, in fact, a very eventful time for her and I when we both first knelt down as husband and wife and I stuttered and stammered through a prayer.
It was an eventful time for me to learn that all those times I had professed to hate Christ and the Bible, He had recorded in the very book I said I hated, that He loved me from the foundation of the world.
But is this ETERNAL SALVATION ?
Far from it.
It was a salvation from the bondage of false religion.
The same salvation Paul was referring to in that Scripture where he describes the Jews as having a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge, where he discusses the need for a preacher to be sent because how can one believe if nothing is heard ?
My people call it GOSPEL SALVATION, and rightly so.
This salvation frees you from the darkness of this world, into the light of this world: Christ.
It is this salvation that commands men to repent, to believe, to obey, BECAUSE THEIR ETERNITY HAS ALREADY BEEN SECURED BY CHRIST apart from any works of their own.
It is the same salvation Christ commanded His disciples to preach to all who have ears to hear, when He sent them out to the world, to teach what He taught, teachings which He heard and received from His Father.
But it is not eternal salvation.
For eternal salvation demands nothing from the yet unregenerate elect.
Not even memory.
For, if among the many things that you demand from a sinner to be eternally redeemed and saved, he must REMEMBER or have a conscious recollection of when he was saved, then you have just condemned more than a half of humanity that has ever existed on earth and have confined the salvation and redemption of sinners by Christ within the boundaries of time.
By that I mean NO SOULS WERE SAVED UNTIL THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL began and belief began.
In addition, you are also pronouncing the eternal fate of those who were born, have been born, and will be born with mental challenges of all sorts, and those who will forget when they were "saved" because of these same mental challenges that may come by old age.
For isn't there a Scripture that says so ?
I quote 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 to you, sir:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and wherein ye stand ;
By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
DHK'2069707 said:
Well, part of this section of your post kind of parallels my own experience. You most likely articulated it better.
All I know is I have never stopped believing in, or is it, on, Christ, even when I said I was Marxist/Leninist Atheist (and you may or may not believe I didn't think I was alone there).
Which is why when I heard that preacher present the Christ of the Bible, I said I want THAT CHRIST. and I want that New Testament because that will tell me more of THAT CHRIST.
Biblical gospel salvation requires the REGENERATE MAN much.
But until he is regenerated, there is no demand whatsoever for any responsibility on his part because God knows he is incapable of doing anything that will please Him.
Actually, you are still closer to Roman Catholicism than you think.
Something for something.
Grace for indulgences, and vice-versa.
The cross, or the sword.
Roman Catholics think the Roman Catholic doctrines is for the good of all men.
You, even as a Christian, believe sincerely that the Bible, or the Scriptures, is addressed to ALL MANKIND.
It is NOT.
Paul STATED so, in Romans 15:4 and 1 Cor. 10:10-12.
Jehovah, in no uncertain terms, implied that His laws and His commands were for His people, ISRAEL, only, and only them, and not to the Hittites, not to the Jebusites, not to the Hivites, nor any of the surrounding tribes.
If He wanted them brought to Him, He would've sent Moses, or Joshua, to them.
Harder meat: God is an exclusive God.
He excludes from His grace and mercy those for whom these are not meant.
DHK, for what it's worth, I'm starting a new thread on this very issue we are discussing: When were you saved ?
You may or may not want to investigate and discuss.
But I thank you for a very mild way of discussing our differences in doctrine.
You may or may not want to investigate and discuss.
But I thank you for a very mild way of discussing our differences in doctrine.
Much of my RC upbringing is mirrored here as well.:BangHead:
A 'QUID PRO QUO' foundational belief system....Interisting! Food for thought ...will sleep on that one.:thumbs:
A 'QUID PRO QUO' foundational belief system....Interisting! Food for thought ...will sleep on that one.:thumbs: