Ecclesia vs. Hetaeria

[Tom Butler]

Tom Butler...



You cant "see" it because you arent God. When God looks down at His Universal Church, He sees "some" of that church physically gathering together in places of fellowship, while "some" others...for any number of reasons...are not physically gathering presently.

Yet God knows them intimetly, He is blessing them, and He is using them as an instrument to bless others. In Gods eyes, we are ALL assembled. We are assembled here on planet earth doing those things that God is ordaining for us to do, through the Holy Spirits indwelling and empowering.

In other words, The Lord Jesus Christ is living out HIS life in and through them just like He is with those who are assembling.

What a wonderful God we serve!


:godisgood:

"You can't see because you aren't God." And you can see it, because....?
"In God's eyes we are all assembled." And what do you call it when they assemble? A local church, maybe?

I can't recall the last time I saw the English language so tortured, as in this thread.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Tom,

I said...

""You can't see because you aren't God." And you can see it, because....?"

:laugh:


Well, gee Tom, thanks for the compliment, but...this may surprise you, but...

I'm not God, either!

I mean, what do think...that we can rent a Cessna or something and fly all over the surface of the earth picking out the christians???

This may shock you, but Almighty God knows the precise identity and location of every single born again person on this earth. He knows where they are, what they are doing, and how He can use them for His glory...wether thay are sitting in a building or not.


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

I mean, what do think...that we can rent a Cessna or something and fly all over the surface of the earth picking out the christians???

That is precisely why there is no such thing as a universal church. You can't bring them together. They can't gather. They can't assemble or form an assembly. They are as prayerless prayer warriors. An unassembled assembly makes no sense. A Bible study without a Bible makes no sense. A prayer meeting without prayer makes no sense. An assembly without being assembled makes no sense. Get a grasp of the English language.

This may shock you, but Almighty God knows the precise identity and location of every single born again person on this earth.

That doesn't help you any. You aren't God.
Paul speaking of the local church at Corinth, not any such monster as the universal church said this:

1 Corinthians 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
--When one member of the local assembly suffers all the members suffer with it. If the Pastor's wife has a debilitating disease such as M.S., then she suffers, and all the members of that particular church suffer with her. They are able to empathize and pray and help out in any way possible.
If a person in Sierra Leonne, for example has the same problem, you won't even be cognizant of it for you know nothing of the Christians and therr needs in that nation. Nor do you know the suffering of most of the Christians all over the world. How can you "suffer with all the members of the uiversal church?" You can't. It is impossible. If there were even one million Christians (and there are many more than that) it would be impossible for you to know the needs and personally empathize with that many people.
The only way that verses in 1Cor.12 can be applicable to us, is if they are in a local church setting.

He knows where they are, what they are doing, and how He can use them for His glory...wether thay are sitting in a building or not.

But you don't and you are not God. For that reason God has set up local churches to meet the needs of his children. A so-called universal church cannot meet the needs of anyone.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

I said...

I mean, what do think...that we can rent a Cessna or something and fly all over the surface of the earth picking out the christians???

And you said...

"That is precisely why there is no such thing as a universal church. You can't bring them together. They can't gather. They can't assemble or form an assembly."

Ummmm...thats the very reason why we dont call it a local church, but rather the universal church.

"They are as prayerless prayer warriors.

Wow. If a christian isnt gathered in a building, they lose the ability to....pray? Is THAT what you are saying?

Or...are you saying that God only hears prayers that come from buildings?.

How bout if I am standing on the steps of my home church building, but I'm not technically IN the building. Does God here my prayers then? or not?

"An unassembled assembly makes no sense."

It does to God.

"A Bible study without a Bible makes no sense."

Do you not have scripture memorized? I do.

"A prayer meeting without prayer makes no sense."

I was in a prayer meeting one time when all we did was LISTEN. We listened for God to comunicate to us. Then God spoke...not in audible words...and it turned into the best prayer meeting I've ever experienced.

An assembly without being assembled makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense to God.

"Get a grasp of the English language."

I'm more concerned with scriptural language.


:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

"For that reason God has set up local churches to meet the needs of his children. A so-called universal church cannot meet the needs of anyone.'

Really? I minister at my place of employment as God opens doors. God has met the needs of MANY MANY MANY PEOPLE through me at work, and my home church was 100% uninvolved. And there are other christians where I work who do the very same thing, and their home fellowships have nothing to do with that as well.

DHK, it is when we LEAVE the church building that the vast majority of ministry should be taking place. If the only ministry that takes place involving a group of people in a church is the ministry that goes on in that building, or as an outreach of that church...than that is one very very sick fellowship.

A church should have all of their people out in the world, infiltrating the world with Gods love, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. (some people work 2nd and 3rd shifts)

That is when the vast majority of the work of ministry should be taking place, completely independant of the local church.

And if some of those christians are not fellowshipping anywhere for some reason or another, God is still using them for they are still a part of the Universal Church.

Someone put it this way once...

"they are all a part of the family of God. Once born again, we are born into God's family: brothers and sisters in the Lord. All over the world we are brethren in Christ--the family of God."

You posted that. And its a fine and beautiful articulation of the Universal Church.

But then you turn right around and say that what you yourself just discribed up there...doesnt exist!!!!

Highly unusual, indeed.


:godisgood:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually, you should consider yourself a member of your previous church until you find a new church home where you live.

Many years ago, members requested dismissal from a church when they moved. They were dismissed until the congregation said they were.

But you can't assemble.

 

[Tom Butler]

But you can't assemble.

Actually, you can, by seeking out a local congregation of believers. You may fellowship with them and worship with them until, engage in Bible study with them. At the same time you may seek the Lord's guidance as to whether he wants you to enter into a covenant relationship with those believers.

People do this all the time.

My church is located on an interstate highway interchange. Regularly, travelers will walk in to our worship services. They are assembling with us.

 

[Tom Butler]

E;phesians 4:4 "....there is one body...."

This verse is often cited as the proof text for the existence of a Universal Church.

Here are some thoughts from Wallace and Hershael York, father and son. Dr. Hershael York is a pastor and professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. His father has also been a long-time pastor:

Does he mean one in number or one in kind? Through examination of the entire context it is evident that he speaks of one kind of body. Ephesians 4:5 reads, “(There is) one baptism.” Obviously that speaks of a single kind of baptism rather than just one occurrence. The baptism of which he writes is immersion of a believer, just as the body which he mentions is single in kind also. Corinth had that one kind of a body as did Antioch, Philippi, Thessalonica, or Rome.
Those who persist in denying the local body create an arithmetic problem. They would have two baptisms and two bodies. One baptism, by the Holy Spirit, places them in the universal church, and water baptism makes them a member of a local church. Obviously that is contrary to Ephesians 4:4-5, the very passage they illogically use as a proof text.

 

[Darron Steele]

"You can't see because you aren't God." And you can see it, because....?
"In God's eyes we are all assembled." And what do you call it when they assemble? A local church, maybe?

I can't recall the last time I saw the English language so tortured, as in this thread.

I am not going to chime in on this thread often, but I want to clarify something.

The New Testament was not first written in English.

The New Testament was first written in Greek. The whole problem with this argument is that a lot of people want to take a definition of the Greek word, and then run with it in English.

Even in English, the word "assembly" does not always mean `they are only in the assembly when they are all physically together.' In the Disciples of Christ, a person appointed to the General Assembly is in it regardless of whether or not the General Assembly is meeting. If
a) the members of the General Assembly take a break during the meeting for lunch, and
b) a General Assembly member goes to get a lunch ,
c) from a place providing it special to General Assembly members, and
d) is told `The General Assembly is not meeting, so you are not a member of the General Assembly because the General Assembly does not exist right now'
the person saying so would be viewed as playing a bad joke, or being a smart allac, or as mentally challenged, or as an idiot.

The Greek word translated "church" has several meanings. One meaning is an assembled body. Then, people want to assert that this requires physical assembly -- then say that the Greek word has to mean this. That is not right.

One meaning of the Greek word is a community of followers, which is what I think Jesus meant when he said "I will buildy my church" at Matthew 16. If we take the meaning of the Greek translated "church" to mean `called out assemly' then it still does not require them to be together all the time; they could have been `called out the world and assembled together to be the community of Christ's followers.'

When it comes to understanding Scripture, the meaning of English words is not the ultimate authority. The New Testament was written in Greek.

 

[Tom Butler]

Darron, thanks for chiming in. Your points are valuable to the discussion.

I doubt if anybody would insist that to be called an assembly, it must always be assembled. However, one of the marks of a church (assembly) is that it does assemble, most often on the first day of the week. The so-called Universal Church does not have that as one of its identifying marks. It not only doesn't assemble, it also can't.

The Southern Baptist Convention technically exists for only three days a year, when it is actually gathered in a convention. But that doesn't stop anybody from calling it so, year-round, I think you are trying to resolve a semantical problem that is not a problem for most of us. But one of its identifying characteristics is that it does convene. And those who convene are representatives, always, of local congregations. Not associations, not districts, regions or states. Local churches. There is a reason it's not called the Southern Baptist Church. Cause it's not one.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I am not going to chime in on this thread often, but I want to clarify something.

The New Testament was not first written in English.

The New Testament was first written in Greek. The whole problem with this argument is that a lot of people want to take a definition of the Greek word, and then run with it in English.

Even in English, the word "assembly" does not always mean `they are only in the assembly when they are all physically together.' In the Disciples of Christ, a person appointed to the General Assembly is in it regardless of whether or not the General Assembly is meeting. If
a) the members of the General Assembly take a break during the meeting for lunch, and
b) a General Assembly member goes to get a lunch ,
c) from a place providing it special to General Assembly members, and
d) is told `The General Assembly is not meeting, so you are not a member of the General Assembly because the General Assembly does not exist right now'
the person saying so would be viewed as playing a bad joke, or being a smart allac, or as mentally challenged, or as an idiot.

The Greek word translated "church" has several meanings. One meaning is an assembled body. Then, people want to assert that this requires physical assembly -- then say that the Greek word has to mean this. That is not right.

One meaning of the Greek word is a community of followers, which is what I think Jesus meant when he said "I will buildy my church" at Matthew 16. If we take the meaning of the Greek translated "church" to mean `called out assemly' then it still does not require them to be together all the time; they could have been `called out the world and assembled together to be the community of Christ's followers.'

When it comes to understanding Scripture, the meaning of English words is not the ultimate authority. The New Testament was written in Greek.

excellent and thank you. Which was the point of the thread. Are we acting like those called out or are we acting like social clubs. Seeing several post makes me believe that there is a reason churches are acting like social clubs.

 

[DHK]

excellent and thank you. Which was the point of the thread. Are we acting like those called out or are we acting like social clubs. Seeing several post makes me believe that there is a reason churches are acting like social clubs.

The word ekklesia has one meaning: "assembly." If that meaning is abused, it is not the NT's fault, or the fault of the Greek. In the NT it is defined more clearly when we put Scripture together as:

An assembly of baptized believers who have voluntaily associated themselves together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the ordinances of Christ (baptism and the Lord's Supper).

Thus a "social club" falls outside the realm of the definition of a church, that is the Biblical definition a church. It must be an assembly; an assembly with a specific purpose in mind. The universal church has no purpose, no organization, and it is impossible to meet the definition of the word ekklesia from which the word "church is taken from.

One can say they go to a pagan church. According to the Bible there is no such thing as a church is composed of baptized believers. Why are so many trying to abuse both the English language and the theology that the Bible has so simply and clearly set forth? It is beyond me. You put to gether adjectives and nouns which contradict each other by their very nature.

I would hate to be in a church that has:
Bible studies without th Bibles, and
Prayer meetings without prayer.

Yet there is even a poster here who beleives that these things are possible (on a regular basis.
The English language is yet abused again.

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, gee Tom, thanks for the compliment, but...this may surprise you, but...

I'm not God, either!

I mean, what do think...that we can rent a Cessna or something and fly all over the surface of the earth picking out the christians???

This may shock you, but Almighty God knows the precise identity and location of every single born again person on this earth. He knows where they are, what they are doing, and how He can use them for His glory...wether thay are sitting in a building or not.


:godisgood:

Doesn't shock me a bit. I agree with you. He was there when he saved them.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The word ekklesia has one meaning: "assembly." If that meaning is abused, it is not the NT's fault, or the fault of the Greek. In the NT it is defined more clearly when we put Scripture together as:

An assembly of baptized believers who have voluntaily associated themselves together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the ordinances of Christ (baptism and the Lord's Supper).

Thus a "social club" falls outside the realm of the definition of a church, that is the Biblical definition a church. It must be an assembly; an assembly with a specific purpose in mind. The universal church has no purpose, no organization, and it is impossible to meet the definition of the word ekklesia from which the word "church is taken from.

One can say they go to a pagan church. According to the Bible there is no such thing as a church is composed of baptized believers. Why are so many trying to abuse both the English language and the theology that the Bible has so simply and clearly set forth? It is beyond me. You put to gether adjectives and nouns which contradict each other by their very nature.

I would hate to be in a church that has:
Bible studies without th Bibles, and
Prayer meetings without prayer.

Yet there is even a poster here who beleives that these things are possible (on a regular basis.
The English language is yet abused again.

I can see a future you when english is no longer spoken except in academia arguing with a person something like this: "The english word "love" was reserved only for a husband and wife. "love" could not indicate a close relationship between a man and a friend or it would be fornication, adultry, or homosexuality! "Love" means the bond of husband and wife and the benefits that implies not close friendship that would be sin! You can't blame the english or americans if the word "love" is abused :laugh: Thats kind of what this assembly argument is like.

 

[DHK]

I can see a future you when english is no longer spoken except in academia arguing with a person something like this: "The english word "love" was reserved only for a husband and wife. "love" could not indicate a close relationship between a man and a friend or it would be fornication, adultry, or homosexuality! "Love" means the bond of husband and wife and the benefits that implies not close friendship that would be sin! You can't blame the english or americans if the word "love" is abused :laugh: Thats kind of what this assembly argument is like.

Are you honestly going to sit there behind a computer with access to all kinds of dictionaries and tell me that you don't know what an assembly or congregation is?
Pitiful!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Are you honestly going to sit there behind a computer with access to all kinds of dictionaries and tell me that you don't know what an assembly or congregation is?
Pitiful!

I know what assembly means. But you're nitpicking. Assembly english dictionary:

Main Entry: as·sem·bly
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈsem-blē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural as·sem·blies
Etymology: Middle English assemblee, from Anglo-French, from assembler
Date: 14th century
1: a company of persons gathered for deliberation and legislation, worship, or entertainment
2capitalized : a legislative body; specifically : the lower house of a legislature
3: a meeting of a student body and usually faculty for administrative, educational, or recreational purposes
4 a: assemblage 1 b: assemblage 2
5: a signal for troops to assemble or fall in
6 a: the fitting together of manufactured parts into a complete machine, structure, or unit of a machine b: a collection of parts so assembled
7: the translation of assembly language to machine language by an assembler

I could argue with you that it means that God is fitting together christians into a complete machine or structure. But that is a modern english analogy. As are you. You're right that ekklesia means assembly but break it down: EK: out and Kaleo: shall be called. In otherword you shall be called out of. Out of what? The world. This applies to all real christians. We are called out of the world which applies to all so is bob in turkey and joe in holland are christians they are both called out of the world. If they meet they can also assemble. But God calls us all to the same calling: out of the world. No matter where in the world we are we are all part of the body. He does not have many bodies but one. All those called out. Often in the ancient world common vernacular takes on certain meaning based on their usage. Like numerology in the bible. 7 can mean a number it can also mean completness of Gods working.

 

[Darron Steele]

Posted to Thinkingstuff by someone else:

Are you honestly going to sit there behind a computer with access to all kinds of dictionaries and tell me that you don't know what an assembly or congregation is?
Pitiful!

Thinkingstuff: this was just nasty, and you do not deserve to be treated like this.

About this thread in general: I suspect that a lot of what is happening here is blinding desire to win an argument or to appear to win an argument. It is enticing a few people to do things I think they would not normally do.

This argument is not worth it. I think the best thing to have happen on this thread is for someone to take responsibility as a Christian, and simply withdraw from what this has become.

 

[DHK]

Posted to Thinkingstuff by someone else:Thinkingstuff: this was just nasty, and you do not deserve to be treated like this.

It is not nasty. What is nasty is a denial of the truth over and over again. And that deliberatley so.

About this thread in general: I suspect that a lot of what is happening here is blinding desire to win an argument or to appear to win an argument. It is enticing a few people to do things I think they would not normally do.

I have said that there is nothing wrong in believing in something universal, such as the family of God. That is Biblical terminology. Just don't call it a church (an assembly). That is illogical. A congregation can't be universal. Anyone with the least bit of common sense ought to realize that. Unfortunately Christians of our generation have been so brain-washed that all common sense on this issue has left them. Assemblies and congregations can't be universal. Why is that so hard to see? The derivation word, as has been pointed out, means "called out." That simply infers that it is a called out assembly. It is not universal. It can't be. No assembly or congregation can be. It defies the very defintion of the word.

Is my house universal? No. But within my house we have had at certain times, an assembly of believers? Does that make sense to you? Obviously that assembly can never be universal.

This argument is not worth it. I think the best thing to have happen on this thread is for someone to take responsibility as a Christian, and simply withdraw from what this has become.

The discussion is trying to get across some Biblical truth which should be very easy to understand, but is being opposed simpy because of indoctrinated tradition which cannot be substantiated by Scripture.

 

[Darron Steele]

DHK: I have mostly watched this whole argument about if "church" sometimes means local and sometimes means all believers -- or always just local.

I am not going to engage in an argument with you over that subject. It is not worth it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Ephesians 5:25-26
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Which assembly is Paul talking about here. Just Ephasus? Doesn't apply to other assemblies.

"Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church,"

He must have just meant Jerusalem nothing to do with the rest of christianity.

In Romans 16 we have 5 usages of the word “ekklesia”
1. Verse 1 – Church in Cenchrea – People in a specific location, in this case a small village just
outside of Corinth.
2. Verse 4 – Churches of the Gentiles – People associated with a particular background
3. Verses 3-5 – Church in Priscilla and Aquila’s home ( some translations put “meets in their
home” but the word “meet” is absent in the Greek. I understand that the argument of some
translators is that the word “church” implies a meeting). As I understand it the word “church”
here is speaking primarily to the people in their home and their relationships with one
another.
4. Church in households
Verse 10 – Household of Aristobulus
Verse 11 – Household of Narcissus
Verse 13-15 – Parts of households (3)
5. Church in a region or the entire church in the world
Verse 16 – Churches of Christ – Expressions of the kingdom all across the Mediterranean
world.
Verse 23 – Whole church here – All the believers in Corinth at that time who were enjoying
Gaius’ generous hospitality.

Multiple uses for the same word? NO Really?