Alive in Christ
New Member
Matt Black said...
Yes it is. One body. The Universal Church.
Many assemblies, but ONE Church.
:godisgood:
Yes it is. One body. The Universal Church.
Many assemblies, but ONE Church.
:godisgood:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ecclesia vs. Hetaeria
- Thread starter Thinkingstuff
- Start date
Darron Steele
New Member
I can add something else:gb93433 said:
Eph 4:2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (ASV)
The Greek beneath "forbear" is also translated "bear with" (ESV).Eph 4:3 giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (ASV)
We are told to be "giving diligence to keep the unity" as we "bear with" each other. That means it takes a strenuous effort.
To "bear with" each other, that means there are some things we do not like about each other, but we are to "bear with" each other. This includes flaws.
A lot of people are not willing to make this strenuous effort. They do not want to "bear with" anyone who is wrong -- or who they think is wrong. They want to give in, and abandon "giving diligence to keep the unity" we ought to have.
They will tell you that they will not do it. Not content to not do so for themselves, they want no one else to either. They will revile you. They will accuse you of condoning error. They will even accuse you of being disloyal to Christ. They might even lie about you. There are few limits to how low some people will go against anyone who dares to resist the lust of factiousness.
They have grown accustomed to believing that they do not have to make the strenuous effort of Ephesians 4:2-3. They do not want to hear that they have to. I offer you publicly my agreement with you. However, I can assure you that there is no point arguing the point with people dead set on being factious.
Last edited by a moderator:
Tom Butler
New Member
Alive in Christ said:
Actually, what we have here is your assertion that the scriptures clearly teach the existence of the Universal Church, and your asking how anyone can deny such a simple truth.
Then you have DHK and me and a couple of others who see it just as clearly the other way, and wondering how anybody can hold an opposing view.
I still have not received a satisfactory answer--actually I have received no answer--to my question, what is the purpose of the existence of the Universal Church? I have yet to determine the answer myself beyond the obvious. It has no purpose.
Darron Steele
New Member
To enact the teachings of Jesus Christ. That is the purpose of Christians.Tom Butler said:
Last edited by a moderator:
That is the purpose of the local church and can only be accomplished through the local church.Darron Steele said:
Let me remind you all:
Every epistle by Paul was written either to a local church or to a pastor of a local church.
Every letter written by Jesus to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 was addressed to the pastors of those churches, giving those specific churches either the warnings or praises that were due them.
Darron Steele
New Member
The oldest manuscripts of the start of Ephesians do not have equivalent to the KJV's "at Ephesus." When the translation of the Greek is adjusted, it becomes a letter to all the saints.DHK said:
Paul is not Jesus.
The teachings of Jesus Christ can be found in the four gospels and in Acts 10:35.
Paul taught the same at 1 Corinthians 4:17 when mentioning “principles of behavior| in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church” (NBV|ESV). Acts 10:35 is one specific place where Paul alluded to doing this.
The idea that Jesus Christ's teachings became obsolete when He went to Heaven is not realistic. Paul would not agree with that notion.
That means that all the teachings He gave to us that can be enacted as individuals are still in effect. Local congregations have their role in enacting Christ's teachings, and individuals have their role in enacting Christ's teachings.
Tom Butler
New Member
In answer to my question, "What is the purpose of the existence of the Universal Church?"
Then the" Universal Church' has failed miserably. It can't even agree on what those teachings are.
Darron Steele said:
Then the" Universal Church' has failed miserably. It can't even agree on what those teachings are.
Darron Steele
New Member
We can all read them in the New Testament or hear them read to us in the New Testament.Tom Butler said:
What we disagree over are the correct understandings of portions of them. Usually, those disagreements only have any real relevance on a few hours on Sunday and maybe a handful of hours elsewhere in the week. Regarding the rest of the week, we are predominantly in agreement.
As for the whole week, we are agreed over what the teachings themselves are.
Last edited by a moderator:
Alive in Christ
New Member
Darron Steele said...
And DHK said...
:laugh:
Oh, I see.
So....if I am at work talking with someone about the things of God, and as we progress that one I am talking to tells me that what I am saying is making some sense, and they inquire regarding how they might be born again, I should say...
Deeper and deeper into the "Twilight Zone" we go....
:godisgood:
And DHK said...
:laugh:
Oh, I see.
So....if I am at work talking with someone about the things of God, and as we progress that one I am talking to tells me that what I am saying is making some sense, and they inquire regarding how they might be born again, I should say...
Deeper and deeper into the "Twilight Zone" we go....
:godisgood:
Last edited by a moderator:
Alive in Christ
New Member
Tom Butler,
You believe that christians have no purpose???
You believe that the Body of Christ has no purpose???
:godisgood:
You believe that christians have no purpose???
You believe that the Body of Christ has no purpose???
:godisgood:
This is where you are terribly wrong.Darron Steele said:
In a local church there is general unity in doctrine. I know that there is in our church. You will never find that unity world-wide. Only in the local church is there unity. One can easily find that in the local church of Jerusalem where the early believers were taught daily by the apostles and the believers were all of "one accord", a key phrase in the book of Acts.
I talked to a believer today. Unfortunately she attends a Charismatic church that preaches a false gospel of health and wealth prosperity. It is a church where people allow their emotions dictate their doctrine.
Universal Church? Never! We will never be one in doctrine. Stay long enough--miss the rapture--be part of the one world church of the anti-christ, and then you (or one) can have that "wonderful" (sic) experience of being part of a truly universal church where all believers will be united in doctrine. By that time they will have the technology that the antichrist and the false prophet will be able to reveal themselves to the world. All will have to bow down before them.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Revelation 13:13-14 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
--There are some among the Charismatic movement today who make great claims of doing great wonders today.
Tom Butler
New Member
Alive in Christ said:
No. You share the gospel with him. If he confesses Christ as Lord, instruct him about baptism and encourage him to present himself to your congregation for baptism as soon as practical. But you already know that.
You're going to have to come up with better straw men.
Tom Butler
New Member
Darron Steele said:
Errors regarding the way of salvation, sacramental ordinances, eternal security, and even the Trinity, are 24-7 problems, which destroy any basis for cooperation on anything remotely connected to evangelism and missions.
Tom Butler
New Member
I can't believe that I've done such a lousy job defending my view, that these questions would come up.Alive in Christ said:
So here goes again. Christians have a purpose. It is to glorify God in everything they do. The "Universal Church" as an entity has no purpose, is basically useless and does not exist.
The "Body of Christ" has a purpose. The Body of Christ which I serve is called East Baptist Church. Its purpose is crystal clear.
1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.Alive in Christ said:
For as the body (the body of believers at Corinth) is one (assembly) and has many members (church members) all the members of that one body (local church), being many are one body (one local church); so also is Christ.
--You see, this letter was written to the believers at Corinth. They had no concept of a "universal assembly" (church). It doesn't exist, especially in their language--the Greek. Paul, the author of the epistle, didn't speak the King James English (or any other form of English). The epistle was written in Greek to a church that was located in Greece.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For also in the power of one Spirit *we* have all been baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bondmen or free, and have all been given to drink of one Spirit. (Darby)
--It is easier to see in this translation that it is in the power of the Spirit that we are baptized into one local church. This verse would give evidence that the baptism referred to is water baptism, and the local church is the authority for the baptism. Through baptism one becomes a member of the body (the local church). It doesn't matter whether they were Gentile or Jew--baptized saved individuals were all one in Christ, and there was unity in the local church.
1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
--The body, the local church, has many members. Without those members it cannot properly function.
Paul then goes on to describe how each member of the church has different God-given talents and how each one should be satisfied with the gifts that God has given them. We function together as one body. But this can only apply in a local church setting.
There is no such thing as a "universal church." It doesn't fit anywhere in the Scriptures. It is a contradiction of the very terminology it uses. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Tom Butler,
I posted...
And you said...
Yes, I do.
Now, would you please help DHK with his confusion? Because he has been saying things like THIS....
(wich is like saying that CHRISTIANS do not exist)
And...
When you and I know that the Christs teachings can be perpetuated and enacted by any and all christians, anywhere on this earth, through any and all christians whom God happens to do those works through.
In other words...the Universal Church.
:godisgood:
I posted...
And you said...
Yes, I do.
Now, would you please help DHK with his confusion? Because he has been saying things like THIS....
(wich is like saying that CHRISTIANS do not exist)
And...
When you and I know that the Christs teachings can be perpetuated and enacted by any and all christians, anywhere on this earth, through any and all christians whom God happens to do those works through.
In other words...the Universal Church.
:godisgood:
Alive in Christ
New Member
DHK,
You posted this scripture...
GREAT passage! That is one of the many passages of scripture that support the truth regarding the "universal" church.
The body is one...CHRIST. And His body has many members. They became members at the instant of saving faith and regeneration. They are all across this earth today.
You then commented...
This letter was being sent to those of Gods universal church who happen to live in the area of Corinth. And there is no doubt that this truth applies to the believers who lived there. It also applies to all the believers who have ever lived, from then until today 2000 years later.
The BODY is Christ. We...all the believers worldwide...are the members of His body.
Great passage.
That is ERROR.
We are NOT baptized into one local church. That is "church-ianity"...not Christ-ianity.
We are baptized INTO CHRIST when we are born again. Water baptism is a repesentation of that birth, or baptism, into CHRIST.
Agreed...that water is to be involved.
No. Christ is the authority...not a local church. The local church...usually...has the privilidge of performing the water baptism
Thats churchianity again.
In truth, through baptism one becomes a member of Christs body. Water baptism represents the new birth that has already occured through faith and regeneration alone.
Agreed.
To some extent. But we all know that problems do arise in local fellowshipps.
:godisgood:
You posted this scripture...
GREAT passage! That is one of the many passages of scripture that support the truth regarding the "universal" church.
The body is one...CHRIST. And His body has many members. They became members at the instant of saving faith and regeneration. They are all across this earth today.
You then commented...
This letter was being sent to those of Gods universal church who happen to live in the area of Corinth. And there is no doubt that this truth applies to the believers who lived there. It also applies to all the believers who have ever lived, from then until today 2000 years later.
The BODY is Christ. We...all the believers worldwide...are the members of His body.
Great passage.
That is ERROR.
We are NOT baptized into one local church. That is "church-ianity"...not Christ-ianity.
We are baptized INTO CHRIST when we are born again. Water baptism is a repesentation of that birth, or baptism, into CHRIST.
Agreed...that water is to be involved.
No. Christ is the authority...not a local church. The local church...usually...has the privilidge of performing the water baptism
Thats churchianity again.
In truth, through baptism one becomes a member of Christs body. Water baptism represents the new birth that has already occured through faith and regeneration alone.
Agreed.
To some extent. But we all know that problems do arise in local fellowshipps.
:godisgood:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I have to disagree with your last point because I believe Christ established his kingdom on his first advent and that he maintains the church through the Holy Spirit. Paul spoke to those churches on an individual level but also universally to all churches. History bares this out. Why else should we follow Pauls teaching? If we are all following his teaching then we should all be unified. The Christian brother in the amazon is no less my brother because he's not a member of my "assembly". We are unified under Christ all across the world. The early churches thought this. That is why the letter to the Corinthians and Ephesians and others were copied and passed along to each of the churches because what applied in one place applied in all places. If not for that and the unity of the early church we would not have a NT today.DHK said:Paul was writing to the church at Ephesus. They were one body. There was to be unity in that body of believers. Neither Paul nor Jesus ever wrote of a unity of world-wide believers. This passage speaks of no such thing. He is speaking to the believers at Ephesus. The teaching to the church at Ephesus is applicable to every local church.
Every local church is one body of believers gathered together in one spirit of unity, as they are called to one hope when they were saved.
This verse is self-explanatory. There were divisions in the church at Corinth. Paul was informed by those from Chloe's household about the arguments that were going on in the church. Paul said: "ENOUGH!!" He was putting an end to it. His directions were very specific to that church. We can draw lessons from what we read and apply them to our own churches. But this in no way is speaking of the unity of all believers; only the unity of the believers of the church at Corinth.
There is a such thing as progressive revelation. Jesus after this prayer goes on and tells us how this unity was to be achieved. The last commnad he gives before ascending up to heaven is the Great Commission--to go and disciple, to baptize, to teach all things that I have commnanded you.
That command is given to the local church.
Baptism is an ordinance given to the local church.
It is true that the command to witness is given to all Christians. But one cannot properly be discipled until he puts himself under the authority of the local church, where he can receive the teaching of the Word of God, where he can be fed by the Shepherd.
True unity is found in local churches--Bible-believing local churches, churches that are obedient to the Word of God.
The only time (before the coming of Christ) that there will be a universal church, is when there will be a one-world church composed of all the people of the world who have received the mark of the beast. It will be the church of the anti-christ in the time of the Tribulation, when all the world will be deceived and will worship the "beast" as god. There is your "one-world" church. But mark this: I won't be there.
And when the Millennial Kingdom comes, after Christ comes again, then complete unity and peace will have been achieved. But not until then.
No, that is not right.Thinkingstuff said:
The Bible says: "He came to his own, and his own received him not." (John 1:11)
When Christ came and offered to set up his Kingdom he was rejected and crucified instead. But He will come again, and at that time set up his Kingdom. When he comes a second time he will come "in the glory of his Father with his holy angels."
Here is a passage that describes His Kingdom, the Millennial Kingdom:
Isaiah 65:19-25 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
The passage speaks of Israel, for they shall turn to Christ as a nation when He comes. However the earth itself will be changed. If the Kingdom is operative today why don't the wolf and the lamb feed together?
Why isn't the lion a vegetarian?
Why haven't all these changes taken place if we are now living in the kingdom age?
This is only one of dozens of passages.
Since no such thing as a "universal church" exists there can be no passage in the Bible that supports it. All the Scripture I quoted was from 1Cor.12. You are reading your 21st biased ideas back into the first century. The first century Corinthian church came first, not the Jack Hyles, First Baptist Church at Hammond Indiana. You can't read the methods and ideology of Hyles back into the 1Cor. They didn't have a bus ministry in ICor., and neither did they even have a concept of a universal church. They had Paul's letter written to them, concerning the problems that were specific to their church.Alive in Christ said:
pquote]The body is one...CHRIST. And His body has many members. They became members at the instant of saving faith and regeneration. They are all across this earth today.[/quote]
The body at Corinth, to whom Paul was writing was one, or it should have been. It wasn't at that time. It was full of divisiveness. Paul was teaching them to be unified. Study the chapter.
There is no universal church, and such an animal if it could exist would be anythihng but unified. Take most interdenomination colleges. They serve a smorgasbord of doctrine while often sacrifincing many important doctrines, for the simple fact that they are interdenominational. A "New Evangelical" college would never preach "ecclesiastical separation" would it? It is not important to them.
After all the doctrine a universal church disagreed on would be eliminated, the Bible would be thrown out and there would be nothing left to teach or preach.
Read the epistle first, and don't comment in ignorance.
1 Corinthians 1:1-2 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, by God's will, and Sosthenes the brother,
2 to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours: (Darby)
--Paul wrote to the assembly (the local church) at Corinth, and to the saints or believers that composed it. Before making an off-the-wall statement read your Bible first. He wrote this very specific letter to the Corinthian Church, and to no other church. It was a "for their eyes only" letter. It was personal. He names names. He rebukes individuals in the church. He tells them to discipline a believer out of the church that is there. It is one of the most personal letters in the Bible. It was not a circular letter sent to other churches, not until some years later when it was canonized as Scripture. It was directions for the church at Corinth first. There was and is no universal church. The very concept makes no sense. Ekklesia means congregation or assembly.
See how backward your theology is. "There is no doubt that the letter applies to the believers THERE!!!"
Of course. It was written to them. You are trying to force 21st century ideas back into the first century. Biblical hermeneutics doesn't work that way. One must first determine the meaning of the text from the historical context in which it was written. Then if it has some application for us today, we must be careful how we make that application. We can't force our own ideas into the passage.
Just because a believer here might have a new red corvette, doesn't mean the apostle Paul did. You can't reason that way. Yet that is the way you worded your statement. "...the letter APPLIES to them" (as well).
No, it was written to them.
That is not what Paul said. He said that the Corinthians were a body of Christ. He said nothing about believers worldwide. You can't get that out of this epistle. It was written to the Corinthians.
[quoteThat is ERROR.
We are NOT baptized into one local church. That is "church-ianity"...not Christ-ianity.
We are baptized INTO CHRIST when we are born again. Water baptism is a repesentation of that birth, or baptism, into CHRIST. [/quote]
Sorry friend, but what you are espousing is error.
You are down-playing the very institution that God ordained/
The local church is a God-ordained institution for this day and age. It is the very institution that God shed his blood for. (Acts 20:28).
You need to keep in mind, as I mentioned previously that every epistle Paul wrote was to either a local church or a pastor of a local church.
Paul himself, in three missionary churches, established over 100 local churches, and never once mentioned a universal church. God has ordained the local church as the instrument that he is using in this day and age. Those who set themselves outside of that institution set themselves outside of the will of God.
Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
--the assembling of ourselves together, in this passage, refers to the local church. We assemble in a local church. This is the teaching here.
Don't neglect to assemble one with another, as the habit of Christians is, but exhorting one another, and all the more, as you see the day approaching (the Second Coming).
We are commanded to attend church.
Christ gave the command in the Great Commission. But study and see: Did Christ ever baptize anyone? No. He left the baptizing to his disciples; he did not baptize anyone. Likewise he left the baptizing to the local church.
Take an example from history.
Look at all your major denominations--even from the RCC, to Methodist, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, etc. Almost everyone of them believe that baptism is the "door" to the church. That is one must be baptized in order to become a member of the church, the local church. That belief is ancient, rooted in history, rooted in the Bible.
Call it what you want. I only quoted Scripture. If you don't believe the Scripture what can I say?
There is absolutely no unity in any so-called universal imaginary church that does not and cannot exist.
The key word describing the local churches throughout the book of Acts is: "they were all of one accord."
Concerning the church at Corinth, they were the most carnal church in the NT, and yes there were some divisions. Paul was writing his letter to them in order to correct that problem, and bring them back into unity. That problem was specific to that church.