Ecumenical

I agree that love and biblical separation are not at odds. But the unity that Christ and Paul wanted in us is at odds at the Doctrine of Biblical separation that is practiced by many fundamentalists today.

True biblical separation is about bringing forgiveness and unity to Christ's body.

 

Greg
"We also need to not make leaps. Separating from a brother who walks disorderly or who is in error does not equate with obstructing friendly relations."
"
You do realize that untill this point you gave a completely different impression?

"That possibility does not change the fact that one would believe himself correct, and therefore, opposing views incorrect."
"
Yes but it ought to encourage some minimal humility.

"Maybe we need to define specific issues of separation in this thread. What are side issues?"
"
Just as important how seperate is seperation. My church does not maintain official ties with any other church or parachurch organization. But we do like maintaining friendly if distant relations with a bunch of them.

 

" 'We also need to not make leaps. Separating from a brother who walks disorderly or who is in error does not equate with obstructing friendly relations.'

You do realize that untill this point you gave a completely different impression?"

How? Perhaps you just jumped to wrong conclusions.

" 'That possibility does not change the fact that one would believe himself correct, and therefore, opposing views incorrect.'

Yes but it ought to encourage some minimal humility."

Which would be demonstrated how? By saying that those who believe in salvation by woirks may be right? Lending credence to those in error is not humility.

" 'Maybe we need to define specific issues of separation in this thread. What are side issues?'

Just as important how seperate is seperation. My church does not maintain official ties with any other church or parachurch organization. But we do like maintaining friendly if distant relations with a bunch of them."

Your church has the right to decide what relationship they have with any other church or organization. Sounds like what they are doing is pretty Biblical.

 

Greg,

I don't claim that anyone is going to hell based on misunderstandings, either, unless the misunderstanding regards salvation. Do you believe that people who believe that salvation is obtained by works are going to heaven?

Neither the catholics nor the methodist/Wesleyan Christians believe that works alone directly earn salvation. This is a bit of a straw man. These traditions believe that good works must follow faith. They also believe (wrongly, in the case of the RCC) that certain rituals can confer grace.

As long as the person believes that Christ died for/him her - YES these people can be saved in spite of their bad theology.

 

Greg
Charles spoke about Methodists, Pentecostals and Catholics. And you replied.

"All of the groups you have listed are indeed in error because they have some other authority besides Scripture."

And somewhat earlier on this thread you said.

"What fellowship does light have with darkness?
The Bible tells us over and over to "shun" those who walk in error. "

So I was expecting some figorous shunning by you towards everybody who disagreed with you about religious issues.

Proper humility by the way is shown by avoiding hubris when announcing your opinion after judging the state of the soul of somebody else.

 

I never said that Methodists believe they can earn their salvation by works. But that IS the teaching of the Catholic church. Yes, one can be a Catholic and be saved, but one cannot believe the doctrine of the Catholic church and be saved.

 

Greg,

I never said that Methodists believe they can earn their salvation by works. But that IS the teaching of the Catholic church. Yes, one can be a Catholic and be saved, but one cannot believe the doctrine of the Catholic church and be saved..

Most catholics are pretty ignorant regarding the catechism. As such most could not tell you exactly what IS catholic doctrine.

I will assert that anyone who truly believes (not just admitting in the EXISTENCE of Christ as the demons do) Christ came in the flesh, died, rose bodily, and will return can claim salvation, no matter what denomination. If you disagree with this then you obligately deny that faith ALONE can save.

 

I believed all of those things long before I was saved. What about repentance? What of those who believe those things but also believe that their salvation is obtained by works?

 

Posted by mioque: Do you stand against every single attempt to work towards greater Christian unity?

Sorry, I have been away for a few days.

First let me say I will catch up on this thread later. I am just answering a previous post for now.

I am all for the unity of the bible. If that is what you stand for then we are in agreement. It didn't sound like you were to me. Truth and doctrine are the things that unite us in true worship or divide us unapolegeticly.

I will not fellowship with catholics. I have catholic friends but will not fellowship as christians together. Their theology is so flawed that salvation is unrealistic. THEY DON'T WORSHIP THE SAME CHRIST! As I have said in the past, God would draw them out rather than let them stay in a false religion.

Nor will I fellowship with any other religion not adhering to the truths of scripture.

I will fellowship with non baptist christian churches that hold the word of God as the final authority.

 

But it must be in Christ ALONE:

The 4 Marian Dogma are "binding". A 5th is in the works:

Found online in the public domain at:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/medtrix.htm </font>[/QUOTE]John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

HankD

 

This is typical straw man argumentation. What has the co-redemptrix doctrine to do with the faith of the average catholic?

As a youth in catholic school I learned very biblically correct theology. I was never taught that I was saved because of Mary or because of grace through her.

I still cannot see why so many baptists spend so much time debating who is not really a Christian.

The bible tells me that if a man believes on Christ for the forgivess of sins then he will be saved. This despite the protests of those who want to add their own twist to salvation.

See, the bible says that by faith alone are we saved. True the catholics have some additions here that are not biblical. So do all denominations. So do some fundamentalist baptists who say that faith in Christ is NOT ENOUGH - it must be faith that is 100% in accordance with baptist doctrine.

Many people are going to be handed brooms on judgment day - to sweep up the wood, hay, and stubble that they spent so much time cultivating!!

 

Soulman
"If that is what you stand for then we are in agreement. It didn't sound like you were to me."
"
Time to do what I did with Greg's statements in this thread, go over them with a fine toothed comb and isolate and repost the ones that gave you that impression.

"I have catholic friends but will not fellowship as christians together. Their theology is so flawed that salvation is unrealistic."
"
I wonder how friendly get together's go between you and those friends of yours of whom you're basically certain that they will fry for all eternity....


This is not simply sarcasm on my part, I have some aquaintances from my university days whom I still meet from time to time, that are most certainly not saved at this point in time.

 

Possibly everything.

Aren't you concerned about the possibility that for someone who can accept the concept of a "co-redeemer" through a sacramental system doesn't really understand the Gospel of the Grace of God through Jesus Christ alone?

It's not a matter of spending time debating who is a Christian but participating in the preaching of the pure Gospel and rescuing lost and confused souls from a corrupt religion.

HankD

 

Posted by mioque: I wonder how friendly get together's go between you and those friends of yours of whom you're basically certain that they will fry for all eternity....

Actually it is sad. I have expressed biblically the plan of salvation and shown them in their catachisim the flaws of their religion. They just keep comming back with tradition. That is their only defense. I keep praying for them but they have chosen and been presented with the truth. It is up to God now.

They are work friends.

 

Posted by Charles Meadows: I still cannot see why so many baptists spend so much time debating who is not really a Christian.

It is not us making all the noise. Baptists have always stood their ground. It is the others clamouring to be on board the band wagon. When they don't measure up biblically, they are rejected as they have always been at the cost of many baptists lives. Others don't play well with us.

Posted by Charles Meadows: The bible tells me that if a man believes on Christ for the forgivess of sins then he will be saved. This despite the protests of those who want to add their own twist to salvation.

You are correct. What about those that don't have the same Christ as true christians?

1. Catholics - Their christ is re-sacrificed each and every mass. He lives in a little tin box on the alter. His sacrifice was less perfect than animals as they were only sacrificed once a year. If this were true, what type of hell would our Savior be in? Dispite His best efforts they still have to do time in purgatory to work off their sins. As if God sacrificing Himself wasn't enough? After everything he has done for them, people still go to his mommy instead of him as well as other false saints to have their prayers answered. Saved catholics? Wishful thinking!

2. Mormons - Their christ is an angel. brother of lucifer. Equal to Joseph Smith as they will sit in judgement of man together. This was a created christ!

3. Jehovah's Witnesses - Their christ is an arch angel. The first created of God. A mighty god..not the almighty. Became a god at his baptisim

Put your trust into any one of these or countless others that CLAIM to be Christian and you WILL go to hell. All this talk of saved catholics is garbage. If they are saved they will come out of her for love of the truth! They cannot get saved beleiving in their little false christ.

Tolerance for baptists is waining as we remain seperate from false doctrine. Everyone is inclusive till someone will not bend their knee to false religion. Then in the name of Christ they will come against us as they have in the past. Nailing us for being hateful and intolerant. They are the one that will be intolerant.

Baptists dispite our differences stand for the good things in life. Love of country and neighbor. We try to bring our kids up to be good citizens and christians. Others can mock these things till the mask comes off.

[ April 28, 2005, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Soulman ]

 

Soulman,

You and I will disagree on just about everything. I believe that Christ was born of a virgin, died for sins, rose bodily, and will return again. That is the Christologic kerygma. I KNOW that has bought my salvation. Do you assert that something MORE must be added? If so you are wrong. A person who believes this formula truly has salvation, whether he is baptist, catholic, methodist, pentecostal etc.

I agree that the RCC has some bad doctrines, as do other denominations. I do not, however, believe that one must have completely correct theology to go to heaven - if that were the case 100% of people would be going to hell.

I think Christ was quite clear that faith is all that was needed - and that He knew who had true faith. Someone who has true faith that Christ has paid for his/her sins WILL go to heaven.

I lament that many fundamentalist baptists have turned this denomination into a quasi-pharisaism. No NIV bibles, no women with pants, no salvation for anyone who is not just like me.

We are to separate from those who would seek to pervert the truth. Someone sincerely worshipping Christ as savior, while yet holding some bad doctrine, does not constitute attempting to pervert the truth - it constsitutes someone with bad theology but good faith.

When you get to heaven (unlike some people I do not question the salvation of sincere Christians) you WILL see some catholics, some methodists, some baptists etc. I'd agree that the more off-track denominations (RCC, Anglican, liberal methodist) will likely be less well represented.

 

Perhaps you should question them at the appropriate time Charles.

Jesus Christ questioned the reality of peoples faith, even those who were intimate friends and the closest to Him (and He is God come in the flesh).

John 11
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 21
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Personally I have no problem speaking with individual Catholics and I might even stand with a mixed group of anti-abortionists at a rally, but ecumenism is out!

I am (was) also a cradle Catholic of Italian descent from the Boston area.

I love Catholics and yes, (here I disagree with soulman) that some, maybe even many, are saved but it is in spite of their church.

It was not until I was in the military that I was saved after reading the Bible. Two years later I left that church after some discussions with priests.

In one thing I agree with soulman, the Church of Rome is just biding her time to eventually remove the mask (my opinion of course).

What? There can not be an Ecumenical Grand Inquisition? Truth can indeed be stranger than fiction.

Proverbs 27:1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

HankD

 

Hank,

I think those verses you quote echo somewhat what I am saying.

I do not dispense with any essential Christian doctrine. I think that sincere faith in Christ that he alone paid the price for one's sins is salvific. I add NOTHING to this faith (sound familiar?). And as such I am dismayed by those who would say that that faith is not saving if one believes in anything other than sola fide. Jesus said that those who sought after Him He would in no wise cast out. Jesus knows who has true faith in Him - we do not.

I find the position of extreme fundamentalists to be, well, BARELY Christian. Such a prejudiced position belies a very poor understanding of Christ's OWN message. They turn Christ's gospel into Pharisaism.I think there will be alot more catholics in heaven than there will be Jack Hyles types.

 

Posted by Charles Meadows: I do not dispense with any essential Christian doctrine. I think that sincere faith in Christ that he alone paid the price for one's sins is salvific.

Catholics' don't just have a little bad theology. Their doctrines are damnable.

I agree with you Charles that you must have faith alone in Christ for salvation. But you must be presented with the one true Christ. Trusting Jesus while re-nailing Him to the cross through the mass and physically eating Him shows that a person has no idea who Jesus is. If you put your trust in a false god how can you be saved?

The bible says there are many Christs'. I do not believe the RCC and christians worship the same Christ.