Ecumenicalism

[Johnv]

Originally posted by canadyjd:
If you build a house, it may or may not be a work pleasing to God. It depends on your motivations and whether it is part of the cause of Christ;

Habitat for Humanity builds houses out of a sense of Godly mission. There's no "may or may not" here.

Forgive me for assuming too much, but you do not strike me as a person who is telling the Jewish or Muslem friend next to you that his faith is worthless because he has rejected the Messiah, The Son of God.

Never have, never will, as doing so will likely push them further away from Christ. I will, however, share my faith with them, when called to do so by the Holy Spirit.

I suspect that there is a rule (written or unwritten) that such a conversation would be inappropriate. Am I correct?

Our purpose is to build houses for those who need them. Our purpose is not to prosthyltetize. Our purpose is to be doers of the Word. Hearers who aren't doers are a dime a dozen. When people show up at a job site, I have no idea what their personal faith is. They know the H4H mission, and know it's mission is built on Christian principles. My main concern is, can they swing a hammer? You'll find that people come to know Christ more by our deeds that our words. If someone askes me about my faith, I will tell them. If they don't, I'll show them, by way of the hammer in my hand.

But to answer your question, no, there is no such "rule".

Whether you think so or not, your participation in events where all the "faiths" are working together to do "God's work" is saying that what you believe doesn't matter.

Let me say this clearly and concisely so you understand me: That is absolute(ly ridiculous).--***inappropriate language removed***---( )emphasis added by Blackbird

The cause of Christ is the only "work" that matters. You could build homes for every person on the planet, but if you aren't doing it in the name of Christ, it is as filthy rags in the eyes of God.

How pharasaical of you. Sometimes, we Christians are supposed to feed the poor just because they're poor, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. Jesus doesn't expect us to make everyone who gets a loaf of bread "pay for it". Sometimes, the very act of giving them a loaf of bread is all the Christian witness in the world.

[ October 26, 2005, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[bapmom]

based on the assumption that the OPer was referring to ecumenicism within the church, I'd say its not of God. We don't join ourselves together with people, and throw out doctrine, in order to gain some sort of pseudo-unity.

However, we all do things out there in the world that join us with unbelievers, or people of other faiths. That's not the same as being ecumenical. ANd when we do those "secular" jobs, are we not supposed to do them to the best of our ability and give God the glory for any success we may see?
I should think that Habitat for Humanity is a worthy cause, and one which I'd see no problem being a part of. It isn't a church, nor is it affiliated with any specific church or denomination or religious group. To say that joining with such an organization is "ecumenical" would be the same as saying that a Christian ought not find employment at some place like Wal-Mart because they also hire Muslims.

 

[JackRUS]

Johnv.
You wrote this to canadyjd:

I take offense to that, and, frankly, find your attitude on this matter rather condescending in an unscriptural fashion."

Then later you posted this:

"Let me say this clearly and concisely so you understand me: That is absolute(ly ridiculous)."

"How pharasaical of you."

Tsk, tsk. Rom. 2:1

The Judgement Seat of Christ will determine whether or not any house building was done to His glory, and whether or not He got the glory. If the work is hay or stubble, it will be burnt up. If He gets the full glory, a reward will be given. Rom. 14:4,10.

I would say that this is OT stuff about the house building. The topic is still about Ecumenicalism. That is the joining together of various denominations as a sort of super church. And this group almost always includes the Catholic Church among other cults.

A few years back I wanted to join up with a prison ministry at the local county jail. After going through the orientation I found out that they are ecumenical, and that the Protestant, Jewish and Catholic factions are joined together, and that there is no evangelizing allowed. What a waste of a Saturday. I still get mail from them, and their main topic is still ecumenicalism.

[ October 26, 2005, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[canadyjd]

You are right Jack. We are off topic.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
I would say that this is OT stuff about the house building.

H4H bases itself on NT principles, especially on Jesus' words commanding us to feed, house, clothe, etc. I do so out of love of Jesus.

The topic is still about Ecumenicalism. That is the joining together of various denominations as a sort of super church.

If that's the definition of eciminism/ecumunicalism/ecuminicism/eggsandhamism, then I'm inclined to agree and avoid it. However, doing something for the Lord, and allowing people to volunteer regardless of their faith (so long as they support the H4H mission purpose) is, imo, completely pernissible for a Christian, even though some will see it as ecuminism. That form of ecuminism is okay, since it doesn't compromise a person's Christian doctrine. But many people confuse them, seeing any incident of varying faiths working together as unscriptural.

 

[canadyjd]

Johnv

Habitat for Humanity identifies itself as an "ecumenical" organization.

http://www.habitat.org/how/christian.aspx

If you look through their material, you will find a reference to Muslems, Jews and Christians having joint worship services.

It is weakening the cause of Christ because it is saying that what they believe is just as valid as what Christians believe.

After further review, I stand by my prior statement. I am not convinced either of you are doing "God's" work.

peace to you

 

[Craigbythesea]

It is my personal opinion that Habitat for Humanity is a Christ centered ministry that is obedient to the two greatest commandments,

Matt. 22:35. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
36. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37. And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38. "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40. "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (NASB, 1995)

 

[Soulman]

Posted by JohnV: Our purpose is to build houses for those who need them. Our purpose is not to prosthyltetize. Our purpose is to be doers of the Word. Hearers who aren't doers are a dime a dozen. When people show up at a job site, I have no idea what their personal faith is. They know the H4H mission, and know it's mission is built on Christian principles. My main concern is, can they swing a hammer? You'll find that people come to know Christ more by our deeds that our words. If someone askes me about my faith, I will tell them. If they don't, I'll show them, by way of the hammer in my hand.

You said Our purpose is to build houses for those who need them. Our purpose is not to prosthyltetize. Our purpose is to be doers of the Word. tell them.

Then what is the Godly principal in building houses if not to prosthyltetize?

You said Our purpose is to be doers of the Word.

If you are a doer of the word you will share with everyone. If there is no opportunity to share your faith with the muslim you are working next to, then do it as working men. If you are going to try to claim it for the glory of God, then you must do it within His will. His will is that none should perish.


You said If someone askes me about my faith, I will tell them. If they don't, I'll show them, by way of the hammer in my hand.

You have it backwards my friend. Lifestyle evangelisim works poorly. How can swinging a hammer and being a nice guy let someone know they are on their way to hell? We are to tell them! If you are doing this work for God you don't wait to be asked about your faith. You boldly proclaim your faith as the faith of the one true God.

You said You'll find that people come to know Christ more by our deeds that our words.

That is an untrue statement. That is NOT how Christ set up evangelisim. Evangelisim is verbal. Our good work ethic and examples may help, but rarely get the job done. Once they know we are christian our good traits help to keep our testamony.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Soulman:
Then what is the Godly principal in building houses if not to prosthyltetize?

The Godly principle is to give shelter to the poor. At least it's a Godly principle in my Bible. Perhaps yours is different.

If you are a doer of the word you will share with everyone. If there is no opportunity to share your faith with the muslim you are working next to, then do it as working men.

Volunteers of H4H share their faith via the hammer and nail.

You have it backwards my friend. Lifestyle evangelisim works poorly. How can swinging a hammer and being a nice guy let someone know they are on their way to hell?

You might want to try it some time. It works more than you think. Any fool can talk. Many aren't doers.

We are to tell them! If you are doing this work for God you don't wait to be asked about your faith. You boldly proclaim your faith as the faith of the one true God.

I do so when prompted by the Holy Spirit, not when pressured by other people.

You said You'll find that people come to know Christ more by our deeds that our words. That is an untrue statement.

I disagree completely. Christian windbags are a dime a dozen. Many of them do a good job at pushing people further away from Christ.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by canadyjd:
Habitat for Humanity identifies itself as an "ecumenical" organization.

http://www.habitat.org/how/christian.aspx

Yes, it does. As I said earler, ecuminism when defined as doing something for the Lord, and allowing people to partake regardless of their faith, is scripturaly permissible ecuminism. What is not permissible ecuminism is joining together and abandoning biblical principles. Since biblical principles are not abandoned by H4H, scripture is not violated here.

After further review, I stand by my prior statement. I am not convinced either of you are doing "God's" work.

I am 100% convinced that H4H is doing God's work, and 150% convinced that I am doing God's work when I volnteer my time, pick up a hammer, and build someone a house.

You've never seen the joy when someone receives the key to their home, a home that I helped build. You've never seen the Holy Spirit work in these people. You've never seen the tears shed and the praise given to God on that day. You've never seen the humility and thanks when one of us hands the new owner a bible that is signed by all of us. You've never heard a recipient of a home tell you "I never gave God the time of day, but because of you I know He's alive and that He loves me" or "you guys are a blessing from the Lord".

Watch and episode of Extreme Makeover Home Edition and multiply that by 100. That doesn't even begin to compare. I actually feel sorry for someone who has no desire to experience the selflessness of that act. God is so abundantly present that I'd have no room on this board to document it. The fact that some of you will so casually sluff it off is indeed unfortunate.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Deacon, Canadyjd, Humblesmith, Soulman, and bapmom:

I will stand with Deacon, Canadyjd, Humblesmith, Soulman, and bapmom on this matter.

A doctrine of analogy please in this paragraph: When all come together after all have compromised to believe the “will of man”, there will be that one holding the “branding iron”, saying come unto me all ye that labor in your “good works” which brings you to Me, whose name you do not know. Your works will hold you until you are told the secret that has not yet been told. Believe in God, then you will believe in me, for then you will know my name. So all that believe there is a God, believe that I will come, and you will know my name, for thus far there is no name whereby we must come through to be saved. Keep up the good work believing there is a God, the God that will save everyone of you when you know my name. With Love, signed ........(Look for it soon.To be revealed in the Tribulation.)

This is universal ecumenicalism.

But Yes for the Christian churches (I believe they are known today) to work together in this world for the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Fat chance for most view those “others” with a suspicious eye. Why those people don’t even understand “water baptism, each Christian church muses.

But please don’t take me wrong, for we being born to good works such as Habitat for Humanity, Salvation Army, all those “union gospel missions”, Red Cross is proper and right, just so long as we don’t believe we Must Do These Works. But we must remember these are all works of the “flesh”. To me the best thing for we as Christians to do (IMO) is be to be “faithful”, live the Christian life, then if possible in our make-up spread the gospel, and give to those we believe are doing just that, teaching we must believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. We can then work it out from there, as He leads us. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
I would say that this is OT stuff about the house building.

H4H bases itself on NT principles, especially on Jesus' words commanding us to feed, house, clothe, etc. I do so out of love of Jesus.

The topic is still about Ecumenicalism. That is the joining together of various denominations as a sort of super church.

If that's the definition of eciminism/ecumunicalism/ecuminicism/eggsandhamism, then I'm inclined to agree and avoid it. However, doing something for the Lord, and allowing people to volunteer regardless of their faith (so long as they support the H4H mission purpose) is, imo, completely pernissible for a Christian, even though some will see it as ecuminism. That form of ecuminism is okay, since it doesn't compromise a person's Christian doctrine. But many people confuse them, seeing any incident of varying faiths working together as unscriptural. </font>[/QUOTE]Agreed, and it's a fine work. It's also a good ground for evangelism as you pointed out.

I guess that the stumbling-stone was the "sharing in God's work" remark under the present subject of ecumenicalism.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

This is part of the suggested Litany for Shelter to be used on the International Day of prayer and action for human habitat. It looks to be pretty Christian to me.

Leader: O Lord, by whose cross all enmity is brought to an end,
People: Break down the walls that separate us.

http://www.habitat.org/cr/day_of_prayer.aspx

 

[nate]

Why would any Baptist be against working with Methodist or Charismatics or Lutherans to reach people for Christ. My only requirment for joining some other church in cooperation is Salvation if they are correct there then I have no problem working right along side them. Who cares if they don't become Baptist?

 

[bapmom]

nate,

those denominations you mentioned for the most part preach a different way of salvation.

They may use some of the same terms on the surface, but when you start digging problems start cropping up.

 

[bapmom]

Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Deacon, Canadyjd, Humblesmith, Soulman, and bapmom:

I will stand with Deacon, Canadyjd, Humblesmith, Soulman, and bapmom on this matter.

A doctrine of analogy please in this paragraph: When all come together after all have compromised to believe the “will of man”, there will be that one holding the “branding iron”, saying come unto me all ye that labor in your “good works” which brings you to Me, whose name you do not know. Your works will hold you until you are told the secret that has not yet been told. Believe in God, then you will believe in me, for then you will know my name. So all that believe there is a God, believe that I will come, and you will know my name, for thus far there is no name whereby we must come through to be saved. Keep up the good work believing there is a God, the God that will save everyone of you when you know my name. With Love, signed ........(Look for it soon.To be revealed in the Tribulation.)

This is universal ecumenicalism.

But Yes for the Christian churches (I believe they are known today) to work together in this world for the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Fat chance for most view those “others” with a suspicious eye. Why those people don’t even understand “water baptism, each Christian church muses.

But please don’t take me wrong, for we being born to good works such as Habitat for Humanity, Salvation Army, all those “union gospel missions”, Red Cross is proper and right, just so long as we don’t believe we Must Do These Works. But we must remember these are all works of the “flesh”. To me the best thing for we as Christians to do (IMO) is be to be “faithful”, live the Christian life, then if possible in our make-up spread the gospel, and give to those we believe are doing just that, teaching we must believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. We can then work it out from there, as He leads us. Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]ittut,
habitat for humanity is not a church. Its not even para-church. Its just an organization that builds houses for people who need them.
Maybe Im mistaken in my impression of who and what they are, but isn't working with them the exact same thing as working for any other company which may hire people of all different religions?

 

[MikeinGhana]

As a pastor I need to be careful what I do and with whom I do it. Everything I do is scrutinized by my congregation. If I join with some secular group to do some secular work, my people will see it and make some judgments about it. If I link arms with a Catholic Priest or a Charismatic pastor to build a house or shelter someone, my people will have less discernment about why I am doing that. They may be led to believe that it is OK to join with these unbelievers in Ecclesiastic efforts as well. That would be disastrous if you ask me.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I've always thought about this question in the following way. I don't agree with universalism in which non-Christian religious groups worship and fellowship with Christian groups. For different Christian denominations my question regarding the "other" group is:

Are true believers in that denomination saved?

If not then I wouldn't fellowship with them. If so, I would. For man to reject those whom God accepts is the height of folly.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by bapmom:


habitat for humanity is not a church. Its not even para-church. Its just an organization that builds houses for people who need them.
Maybe Im mistaken in my impression of who and what they are, but isn't working with them the exact same thing as working for any other company which may hire people of all different religions?

Overlooked bapmom. Yes I understand about “habitant for humanity”. They are doing a good work for humanity, just as other “charity” foundations. Some “charities” spread the Word as they go, and others do not, but each is for the purpose of “lending a helping hand”. The people in these foundations, the volunteers, are doing it out of motives in their hearts. The saved do it for they are born to it. Others believe they will be “born again” by these good works, and some others may be doing it out of boredom.

I retired from a very large and successful company. I worked for a lively hood, as did all the rest. It was not, I don’t believe, a work I was born to. Not sure if this answers your question.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by bapmom:
nate,

those denominations you mentioned for the most part preach a different way of salvation.

They may use some of the same terms on the surface, but when you start digging problems start cropping up.

Methodists and Baptists are just about as close as you can get theologically. Are you saying that only Baptists will be in Heaven. Or perhaps only Pre-Mill Baptists, or SBC, or KJV only? There are differences in belief withing almost every Baptist church. I do believe that "few will be chosen" but I don't believe it will be on the basis of their denomination.