Education

[Taufgesinnter]

Just a little note to point out the cult of Artemis and the protognostics at Ephesus are specifically relevant to the verses in 1 Timothy 2 dealing with women, including such astonishing, perplexing ideas as "she shall be saved through childbearing." In fact, that last part particularly is what is liable to be explained in ludicrous ways if not focused on the immediate context of pagan Greek religion that Paul was writing to counter.


I also hope nobody thought my comments on education meant it was the be-all and end-all, or more important than spirituality.

 

[LarryN]

Since we're on the topic of Pastoral education, I thought I'd toss my two cents into the ring.

Why is it that honorary Doctorates have become so commonplace in IFB circles? Look at virtually any Bible conference advertisement and if there are a dozen speakers listed, they will almost always all be listed as "Dr.". For most of these men, the title reflects an honorary D.D.

It seems that honorary D.D.'s are dispensed like Pez among IFBs. Also, those who have them usually insist upon being addressed as "Doctor". I've seen this firsthand: one example involved (I'll just say a large, annual gathering of Pastors) that I was at several years ago. One of the Pastors present referred to the week's host as "Pastor H****". As if on cue, several others around him within earshot blurted out: "That's Doctor H****".

Conversely, the pastors I know (including two at my church) who do have an actual, earned Doctorate prefer to simply be called "Pastor".

 

[Taufgesinnter]

Matthew 23 would be the reason, I believe.

 

[LarryN]

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
Matthew 23 would be the reason, I believe.

Tauf,

I agree with you.

Let me clarify something: I believe if a person has earned the right to be called "Doctor", being addressed as such is an honor they rightfully deserve, and something I can respect. If a person hasn't earned the title, then the expectation shouldn't be there that others must address them as such. Such a demand is pure arrogance.

Bill Clinton has several honorary Doctorates; when's the last time you heard him referred to as "Doctor"?

Billy Graham has enough honorary Doctorates to cover a good-sized wall; he dislikes being called "Dr. Graham".

 

[Scott J]

I could never follow an uneducated pastor. However, many pastors that do not have formal education behave as professionals and educate themselves their whole lives.

I have seen formally educated men who stopped learning because they thought they knew it all... and I have seen uneducated men who refused to learn because they thought they already knew it all.

One example of the latter pastors a church not more than 3 or 4 miles from Diane's church in Villa Rica. Can you guess Diane? I wasn't so "Happy" about my visits to their "Valley"...

 

[LarryN]

Originally posted by Scott J:
I could never follow an uneducated pastor. However, many pastors that do not have formal education behave as professionals and educate themselves their whole lives.

I have seen formally educated men who stopped learning because they thought they knew it all... and I have seen uneducated men who refused to learn because they thought they already knew it all.

One example of the latter pastors a church not more than 3 or 4 miles from Diane's church in Villa Rica. Can you guess Diane? I wasn't so "Happy" about my visits to their "Valley"...

Absolutely Agreed.

In terms of the ability of a pastor, their degree(s) or lack thereof is not in many cases an indicator of their overall ability.

 

[Don]

I could never follow an uneducated pastor. However, many pastors that do not have formal education behave as professionals and educate themselves their whole lives.

So God would never lead you to a position where you might have to submit to the authority of someone with less education than you; is that what you're saying?

I reiterate: Torrey and Sunday. If Torrey can humble himself and admit he had something to learn from an "uneducated" man, what makes you better than Torrey?

 

[Justified]

Another problem with a Pastor that is not learned in and taught in a good Scripture base, is that they mostly likely and will have a tendency to run God's Church with their feelings and not Scripture.

Another thing that happens, is that when a member of his church finds out a truth that is contrary to how he is running the church, he will most likely be offended and run this person out.

And another item to consider is he will probably not teach sound Bible Doctrines and Dogmas to his congregation. Thus growth can be hampered.

Now there are exceptions to these statements, but these exeception are not the norm.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I could never follow an uneducated pastor. However, many pastors that do not have formal education behave as professionals and educate themselves their whole lives.

So God would never lead you to a position where you might have to submit to the authority of someone with less education than you; is that what you're saying?</font>[/QUOTE]I believe our brother appropriatly qualified and amplified his position. To me, the operative sentence here is not the first one. IMO, the second sentence is the operative one and in particular the clause I highlighted in bold.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Has anyone, here on this board, ever sat under a pastor that has not graduated from a college?

 

[LarryN]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
Has anyone, here on this board, ever sat under a pastor that has not graduated from a college?

No- my last Pastor had a B.S. from a well-known Bible College; and at my current church (large church) the Senior Pastor has an M.Div and among the seven Associates there are 2 Doctorates (1 PhD & 1 D.Min), 2 M.Div's, and 3 Bachelors as their highest-level degrees.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Two of the past three churches I had been a member of have been educated, the first working on his masters, the second had his masters. The third never spoke of his schooling, nor did he ever speak of graduating. He also did not believe one needed an education to be in the ministry.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
Has anyone, here on this board, ever sat under a pastor that has not graduated from a college?

The second church I was a member of as an adult, the older minister had, if I recall correctly, a sixth-grade education. I don't know whether the younger minister (the bishop) ever attended or graduated from high school, but I'd bet a filling that he never had any college at all. The neighboring conservative churches' bishops, preachers, and deacons all probably had the standard tenth-grade education expected of them by their congregations, but a few might have stopped at the legal minimum of eighth grade set by the U.S. Supreme Court. I expect that the liberal pastors had Bible college or even seminary degrees, though, just like the Protestants.

At the church I currently attend, the pastor has an M.A. and is working on his M.Div. The church I attended before that had no pastor.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I could never follow an uneducated pastor. However, many pastors that do not have formal education behave as professionals and educate themselves their whole lives.

So God would never lead you to a position where you might have to submit to the authority of someone with less education than you; is that what you're saying?

I reiterate: Torrey and Sunday. If Torrey can humble himself and admit he had something to learn from an "uneducated" man, what makes you better than Torrey? </font>[/QUOTE]Hopefully you misunderstood me and Squire cleared it up.

A degree doesn't necessarily mean someone is educated nor does a lack of one mean they are uneducated. I have moved several times during the past few years and always sit with a pastor and get a feel for his "education" before seriously considering his church. Education also comes out in their preaching- style and substance.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

I see what you are saying Scott. Do you think that the "non-educated" pastors could be more prone to falling into a "wind" of doctrine or a practice that could lead people amiss?

Seems education is useful in a day where a wide spectrum of practices common to the local church are more readily accepted in this day as opposed to in years past. Education is pushed and just about anyone can go to college. This doesn't necessarily mean that people are more educated, but that the education standards have dropped in the lower grades, brnging the high school level into the college level. Therefore, a pastor should at least attain a college level degree.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Wonder how many radical charismatics, faith healers, Swaggart/Bakker/Hinn types had a good seminary education?

Think most went to Bible college or had SOME formal training. But solid doctrine and pentecostalism are often incongruous in my experience.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Many of the pentacostal/charismatics have their own colleges to teach their own, I believe. Isn't there a huge petacostal college in Ohio?

And many just go to college to get the degree. Tho, I have to admit that there is alot of these doctrines being taught at the bible colleges that have slipped away from Baptist teachings. Even secularist belief is being taught in colleges today. Use of their texts compounds the problems.

 

[Charles Smith]

Swaggart from reading his autobiography has had no theological training, same with Hinn. Jim Bakker went to Central Bible College in Minneapolis for a semester but was kicked out for marrying Tammy Faye (You weren't allowed to get married during the school year)

I'd like to see what you guys think of this. A 'preacher boy" staying at his home church and being mentored by the pastor (kind of an appretience thing) and getting his degree through distance education? That is what I am considering.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Charles Smith:
Swaggart from reading his autobiography has had no theological training, same with Hinn. Jim Bakker went to Central Bible College in Minneapolis for a semester but was kicked out for marrying Tammy Faye (You weren't allowed to get married during the school year)

I'd like to see what you guys think of this. A 'preacher boy" staying at his home church and being mentored by the pastor (kind of an appretience thing) and getting his degree through distance education? That is what I am considering.

I think what you are considering has merits. But as far as challenges the pastor will most likely reinforce what both of you believe. Sometimes it is good to get challenges in your theology from the outside.

I never thought courses in church history would be so valuable. If it were left up to me I would have never taken church history. But today I highly recommend it.

Before I left for seminary a wise elderly man told me that I would study things I had no interest in but it would be good for me and later I would be thankful. That is exactly what happened to me. When I was in seminary I met people from other countries that challenged my American theology. It challenged me in every area of my theology.

 

[IanM]

I think we should look to our LORD and SAVIOR for an answer to this. JESUS was not well educated. Many of those who were religiously schooled shunned the LORD. If GOD calls a man to preach then the LORD will provide the training. If the person does not have the book knowledge then the Holy Spirit will give him what he needs to know. Its not what you know, its WHO you know. If a person is not saved and on fire for GOD then all the learning on earth will not save them