"Effectual Call"

dw,

What I am trying to establish -- bottom line -- is that the WC says you must be saved before you can hear the gospel unto salvation. That's the "circle" I'm talking about.

Regeneration before faith before hearing/understanding.

Ah - so you DO see! OT saints haven't been regenerated yet but the ARE saved! Classic dispensationalism and TRUE!

Now you know how they were saved? Do you see it yet? They heard WITHOUT being enlightened unto justification of the soul. See, Calvin completely leaves this out! The "salvation" we have today adds the "enlightenment" of regeneration unto the sanctification of the spirit on top of the same justification of the soul!

This is why WC is flawed, BTW. "Enlightenment" is to UNDERSTANDING -- but the Word and Spirit are unto BELIEVING which comes before!

If I were to "rework" the WC to say what the Bible says, I would say -- well, let me go back and grab it

Whenever the gospel is preached... "...All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he [...] calls, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, and [by belief in Christ] to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds ["regenerating" the believer], spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, utaking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to [SANCTIFICATION] in Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

There we have a nice, clean, streamlined statement of what happens -- hear - justified - regenerated - sanctified. Do you believe that the OT saints will be resurrected to the earth? For what? Raised by regeneration; sanctified in new life!

Do you believe WE will be resurrected to earth? NO! Our next "phase" is GLORIFICATION on account we are already sanctified -- born again -- in spirit. Our bodies is all that lacks the character of Christ! If we had perfect bodies, we could live "perfect" lives!

Anyway, have I made you upset with the WC yet? It is NOT that it is an "effectual call" -- it's that most of those who hear it don't believe it unto justification. The WC leaves out this whole step!

Do you also see that those "called our of sin and death in which they are by nature" -- that couldn't be so because God has given them some kind of "prevenient grace" to be able to hear "the Word and Spirit" that others who are present can't hear! To me it's just "primitive" dogma, not real theology.

skypair

 

Oh, I agree. "Ritual without relationship" we call it. But what is each respective church doing about it? The Baptists offer the plan of salvation and an invitation EVERY Sunday to move people OUT of ritual and into relationship. The Reform/Cists seem to ignore the issue. Like you said, nothing could be more "Unscriptural" -- I believe you meant "foolish" as in "the preaching of the gospel is to them that perish foolishness." Is that what you meant? That we shouldn't actually "RECEIVE" the gospel wherein we are saved, 1Cor 15:1-3?? We should do like those who aren't elect and let it just pass over our heads?

I can't find you a more powerful statement in the "economy of God" regarding this issue of "sinners prayer" and asking than Jesus gave in Luke 11:10 -- "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Do you realize that Jesus was not only asking us to receive regeneration in these words but He was asking His disciples to ask for the indwelling Spirit of Him right then as well (so posits J. Vernon McGee whom I'm happy to agree with considering some such believers were raptured with Jesus, 1Cor 15:23, in His resurrection!)?!

Well, pardon me then. "Credobaptism." I suppose "credo" means that those baptized believe in the same "creed?" Is believing the same "creed" going to get one to heaven? I don't know if that is what you are suggesting. Is it?

skypair

 

Bellevue Baptist Church and the late Dr. Rogers.

skypair

 

God bless you, dw!

That is what I see not just in words but in practice. Thank you.

And that IS a problem, is it not? When a confession "uses OUR words but the DEVIL'S dictionary" (Dr. Rogers, again), that teaching lays good along with bad and becomes false teaching (I just wrote a reply to a Catholic friend is why I have these things in mind already).

Correct. The WC does hold this. However, since the WC differentiates between regeneration and salvation, then the WC itself does not argue that salvation comes before faith before hearing/understanding. No circularity.

That would be in error too, then (Unless you are talking about the OT salvation model now). We aren't saved today but what we are also sanctified by the Holy Spirit. We don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling (we're not "regenerated") unless we are saved. Both are given at the same instant.

Now in the OT, believers were saved but DIDN'T receive the Holy Spirit of regeneration. Did you know that? That is why we can be so absolutely sure of when regeneration occurs -- at the same instant as salvation for us.

Here's a proof: look up Acts 19:1-6. Disciples of John the Baptist (saved OT-style) come to Paul. (A similar event took place in Acts 18 a little earlier)

Paul says, "Have you received the Holy Ghost?"

They said, "We didn't even know there was a Holy Ghost."

Paul says, "Then believe on the name of Christ and though shalt receive (NT-style) the Holy Ghost." And they did!! They were what we call saved in the NT way -- "regenerated" immediately upon bleieving on the name of Christ!

skypair

 

No. You are using someone else's definition of "regenerate" (likely Calvin's) to come to that conclusion. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be "born again" and not be saved. One can be saved and not "born again"/"regenerate" (OT) but not the reverse. And "Regenerate"/"born again" are NT doctrines. The OT equivalent was being resurrected to actual phyical life on earth. Both of these appear in Jesus discourse with Nicodemus. Nicldemus didn't know what "born again" meant but would have known about the resurrection of the just/dead in the last day.

That's "key," but incomplete.

Per my previous post, see Acts 19.

skypair

 

Good. Thank you for explaining that to me, especially the "credo" part.

skypair

 

Well, Jesus discourse with Nicodemus is the first place I find it explained. "Generated" = "born;" "Regenerated" = "born again." 1Pet 1:23 and Jas 1:18 are good one parallels. Titus 3:5 astually uses the word regeneration "He saved us by the washing of regeneration; and renewing of the Holy Spirit." BTW, this appears to talk to OT saints as the "renewing" of the Spirit suggests a new Spirit, and in 3:7 he mentions "being justified by grace" He now makes us "heirs." (cf. Col 1:13)

Gloriously, I can atest to it on personal grounds to begin with! Then there's 1Cor 2 -- the natural man cannot see the hidden wisdom of God. You have to talk to them like they are lost, 2:1-5. Only the "spiritual man" -- the man who is "perfect"/saved has the "mind of Christ," the Holy Spirit!

skypair

 

I see what you are saying. You see the "see" and "enter" the kingdom of God as being in some distant future?? Well, it could be EXCEPT that being regenerated means the Holy Spirit dwells in you and that can't happen to an unsaved person. We're talking about born again of the Spirit, John 3, and 1Pet 1:23, right?

It's a gift" just like faith is a gift, 1Cor 12:8. Doesn't a person get the gift of faith simultaneous to salvation? Is not the Spirit the "Earnest of the purchased possession?" 2Cor 1:22

Do you see the chapter "break" in 2:6? Now Paul preaches to the "PERFECT?" That's where he changes from talking about the gospel to unbelievers and the deeper truths to the "perfect" -- the saved, the spiritual.

Yes, indeed! Look in John 20:22 where resurrected Jesus breathed on them and told all the 11 disciples to "Receive ye the Holy Ghost!" That was a good question, dw. You're thinkin'!

skypair

 

Simply put, you don't see what Jesus said about "seeing" and "entering" to be simultaneous either, then, though they are 2 verses apart as talk about the same thing.

Let me ask you -- when you were born the first time, did you enter this earthly kingdom and see glimpses of it at the same time? Would you expect that an OT saint raised to life from the grave would "enter" and "see" the MK at the same time?

That's why you have to know a little more about why Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not "knowing these things." For OT saints, salvation and entering were NOT simlutaneous. It was saved - die - resurrected by being born again, that is of the Spirit. Our baptism is a picture of Christ but also of them coming out of their graves into newness of life in rebirth!

Definitely not. BELIEF comes before salvation, but not faith. Faith is the gift given to believers.

Holy Spirit indwelling is what Dr. Rogers called, our "engagement ring" that soon we will be married to Christ in heaven! We get that along with faith the moment we believe of Christ for salvation.

Which testimony were you talking about? I thought you were talking about Pentecost. That was after Christ's resurrection and after John 20:22. What "inspired" testimony of Peter pre-resurrection are you talking about?

skypair

 

First is from context. Nicodemus asked whether a man could crawl back into his mother's womb and be born again. Second, new believers are called "babes in Christ" needing the "milk of the word." Third -- this will interest you re: your question below -- the earth is said to be in "travail;" can is bring forth in one day Isa 66:8 "for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." This, as you doubtless know, is a prophectic passage regarding Israel in the MK.

The key to all faith in all the Bible is a right relationship with God -- Agreed? That relationship is called "justification" and in the OT, they thought it was by the blood of animals every year that it was renewed. I mean, we're talking Adam to Jesus. They figured the relationship would all work out when Messiah came, resurrected them, and just washed away their sins forever!

The other feature of this justification is that it was God's work in the soul of man then and now. In the soul/conscience is our God and self awareness. As soon as man sins, he has to think about God. Mostly man will go on doing whatever he wants and hardening and searing his own soul/conscience. Justification is turning from self to God -- "acknowledge Him in all thy ways and He shall direct your paths" -- in as simple a fashion as is suggested in Rom 1:21, glorify Him and be thankful is the beginning. Or "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

Justification became more sophisticated as God chose a people and revealed more about Himself over time. But the essence of OT salvation and our salvation today is still turn from self to God. This is why many cannot discover dispensations, right?

Mostly I find that Calvinists get faith and belief confused. Belief is trust the word of promise -- faith is receiving the evidence of that promise (Holy Spirit in our case). Before faith and salvation, there comes the work of the Holy Spirit in every man upon the manifestation of God to him. As I said, the manifestation of God (usually by the Word today) demands that we make a choice -- believe or not believe -- a response. If we choose to obey God's word and turn/repent of self, God GIVES faith and salvation. But it's a covenant transaction, dw. And performance is not only on God's part.

This is where Calvinists are confused by faith vs belief, though. Can you see that we are GIVEN faith but we are not given belief? In fact, we can even believe in vain (1Cor 15:3) if we do not repent and receive Christ. Calvinism, since it assumes faith is given by God's will alone, assumes its antecedents -- belief and repentance -- because, after all, "it is all of God." Quite often faith is presumed to be given at infant baptism or through confirmation.

Peter was "filled" with the Spirit. Do you know the difference between "filled" and "indwelt?" Jesus asked the disciples to receive the Spirit indwelling -- He was doing as He saw His Father to to Adam, right?

But "filling" is when the mind, emotions, and will are focussed on and controlled by God. As you look through scripture, you wll see believers and unbeleivers filled with the Spirit including Caiaphas who, speaking by the Spirit as head of Israel, said, "One must die so the nation may live."

I believe that those who believe on Christ are "filled" with the Spirit whereby they repent and receive Him. This might be somewhat how the "effectual call" works. I'm not particularly convinced with Calvin's "mystical" explanation that any such thing happens on account of "election" and before "hearing" is my issue with them.

skypair

 

So by a similar metaphor, we are not "espoused" to Christ, His "bride?"

No, faith and justification ("righteousness of God") are given by God at the same time. It is new birth that did (OT) and could (NT) come after faith (Acts 19).

Here's the pattern:

Hear -- believe -- repent (test of belief) -- faith unto justification -/- regeneratoin/sanctification

Well, they're not. God gives ro witholds faith based upon a "belief test."

skypair (gotta go) :wavey: