effectual calling

[Iconoclast]

Here is teaching on effectual calling,I recently posted this in another thread.
This teaching comes from this book,and is used by permission from the author

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/a-baptist-catechism-with-commentary/6135589

The Scriptures distinguish between an outward or external, general call to salvation which is to be made through the free offer of the gospel to all men without discrimination or distinction, and the personal, internal, effectual call to salvation. This distinction is made by context and implication, i.e., the
doctrinal context in which the term occurs (e.g., Jn. 6:44–45; Rom. 8:28–30; 1
151
Tim. 1:9; 1 Pet. 2:9), the implications of that context (e.g., Rom. 9:23–24;
Eph. 4:1; Heb. 9:15), or the contrast with the general call (e.g., Matt. 22:14)
serve to make the necessary distinction. This individual, internal or effectual
call to salvation has been variously termed “the effectual call,” “effectual
calling,” “irresistible grace,” “infallible grace,” or “efficacious grace” to
distinguish it from the outward and general call through the gospel.
The gospel is to be preached to all men without distinction or
discrimination (Matt. 28:18–20; Mk. 16:15; Lk. 24:47; Acts 1:8; 17:30–31).
This gospel proclamation—the “free offer” of the gospel—declares that God
is absolutely righteous and holy, and that he is sworn to punish sin; that man
by nature is fallen, sinful, and under Divine wrath and condemnation; and that
redemption has been accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ for sinners
through his active and passive obedience. Sinners are urged to turn from their
sin in repentance and look to Jesus Christ in faith as Lord and Savior, and thus
be forgiven of their sins and be reconciled unto God through the imputed
righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sinners must believe (Acts 16:31), and
they must repent (Mk. 1:15; Acts 17:31; 26:18–20). If sinners come to Christ
in saving faith and repentance, they will be saved—delivered from and
forgiven of their sins and be reconciled to a righteous, just and holy God (Jn.
6:37; Rom. 3:23–26). See Question 34.
This outward or general call thus goes forth in and through the message of
the gospel—a call to repentance and faith (Acts 17:30–31). It is often either
rejected or the claims of the gospel are misrepresented or misunderstood
(Matt. 7:21–23; 13:5–6, 20–21; Acts 8:13; 1 Cor. 15:2; Heb. 6:1–6). It is
rejected or misappropriated because it comes in word only and not also in the
saving power of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3, 5, 7–8; 6:44–45; 1 Cor. 2:4–5; 1
Thess. 1:4–5; 2:13). It is rejected because of the condition of the sinner by
nature as a fallen, sinful being (1 Cor. 2:14); because of the nature of sin; and
because of a superior, evil power, which effectively keeps sinners from
comprehending the truth of the gospel (2 Cor. 4:3–6). Further, it may be
received in a defective and temporary way through misunderstanding, a fear
of judgment, or through a psychological or emotional reaction (Matt. 13:20–
22; Mk. 4:16–19; Lk. 8:13–14).
The glory of the grace of God in salvation is that he speaks life to the
sinner who is in a state of being a spiritual corpse (Jn. 3:3, 5; Eph. 2:4–5), re–
creates the image of God in him anew spiritually, morally and intellectually
(Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:9–10), breaks the reigning power of sin (Rom. 6:14,
17–18), removes the innate hatred against himself and his Law (Rom. 8:6–8),
and removes the blinding power of Satan (2 Cor. 4:3–6), so the sinner can
freely and gladly embrace Christ as preached in the gospel. This efficacious
call comes in the context of the gospel declaration and not apart from it. Any
teaching which denigrates gospel preaching or biblical evangelism, or seeks
other avenues to move men’s hearts is decidedly unscriptural.

 

[Iconoclast]

here is another article and some sermons;
http://www.founders.org/articles/fj82_barrett.pdf


http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=2241112620


http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1123071124292

 

[psalms109:31]

effectual call

This is what I see as effectual call today after the cross the bridge for man to God, I see it the way you do before Jesus is lifted up and the cross.

Matthew 28:
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[menageriekeeper]

It is
rejected or misappropriated because it comes in word only and not also in the
saving power of the Holy Spirit

Iconoclast. Were the apostles saved before Pentecost?

 

[Skandelon]

because of the nature of sin; and because of a superior, evil power, which effectively keeps sinners from comprehending the truth of the gospel (2 Cor. 4:3–6).

There is much to be addressed in the post but I wanted to comment on this portion. Let's look at the verse in question:

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

1) Notice Paul does say the Gospel IS definitely being veiled to all of humanity from birth as the doctrine of Total Depravity teaches, but it only mildly states, "even if it is being veiled."

2) Just a few verses before this passage Paul writes: 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

So, you can see that the temporal hardening/veiling of Israel is in view here, but even still Paul acknowledges here (as he does in Romans 11) that if they "leave their unbelief" or "turn to the Lord" the veil will be removed...the hardening will cease.

Thus, this passage simply does not support the concept and claims to which it is applied by Calvinists.

 

[freeatlast]

There is much to be addressed in the post but I wanted to comment on this portion. Let's look at the verse in question:

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

1) Notice Paul does say the Gospel IS definitely being veiled to all of humanity from birth as the doctrine of Total Depravity teaches, but it only mildly states, "even if it is being veiled."

2) Just a few verses before this passage Paul writes: 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

So, you can see that the temporal hardening/veiling of Israel is in view here, but even still Paul acknowledges here (as he does in Romans 11) that if they "leave their unbelief" or "turn to the Lord" the veil will be removed...the hardening will cease.

Thus, this passage simply does not support the concept and claims to which it is applied by Calvinists.

Very good! :thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

Here is teaching on effectual calling,I recently posted this in another thread.
This teaching comes from this book,and is used by permission from the author

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/a-baptist-catechism-with-commentary/6135589

Iconoclast I understand the need to defend two different calls when someone holds in predetermined salvation of those who are saved, but there is simply no scripture to support it. There is not a single verse to support two different types of calls.
What we have is a call and some because of the hardness of heart reject the call and bring even more darkness on themselves. Read 2Thess 2:7-12 These people made a choice and God blinded them so they could not believe. We make the choince and God seals our choice which ever way we choose.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast I understand the need to defend two different calls when someone holds in predetermined salvation of those who are saved, but there is simply no scripture to support it. There is not a single verse to support two different types of calls.
What we have is a call and some because of the hardness of heart reject the call and bring even more darkness on themselves. Read 2Thess 2:7-12 These people made a choice and God blinded them so they could not believe. We make the choince and God seals our choice which ever way we choose.

Hello freeatlast,
If you listen to the sermon I posted as well as read through the articles I think you will see where there is clearly a difference. It is explained very well.
We can interact on it after if you would like, but even if you do not embrace the teaching now, at least you will have a very accurate Idea of what the teaching is.

Free part of what you posted is this.

What we have is a call and some because of the hardness of heart reject the call and bring even more darkness on themselves. Read 2Thess 2:7-12 These people made a choice and God blinded them so they could not believe. We make the choince and God seals our choice which ever way we choose.[/

[God has already chosen]

Free...all men and woman reject the word and gospel until God allows them to believe. When someone believes, God has opened their eyes,and ears,giving a new heart. God has already purposed to do this before time was.
In mercy he saves us in time.

 

[freeatlast]

Hello freeatlast,
If you listen to the sermon I posted as well as read through the articles I think you will see where there is clearly a difference. It is explained very well.
We can interact on it after if you would like, but even if you do not embrace the teaching now, at least you will have a very accurate Idea of what the teaching is.

Free part of what you posted is this.
[God has already chosen]

Free...all men and woman reject the word and gospel until God allows them to believe. When someone believes, God has opened their eyes,and ears,giving a new heart. God has already purposed to do this before time was.
In mercy he saves us in time.

I understand that you believe that, but I don't. I believe that we play a part in salvation. We hear and we have to choose.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand that you believe that, but I don't. I believe that we play a part in salvation. We hear and we have to choose.

Free,
A believer believes...yes ,he repents yes he trusts,yes
The question is;

7For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven

Our part is being brought from death to life by God.

Free what part are we going to have when God raises us on the last day....
Like lazarus....what was His part....what choice did he have being dead.

Having been given life he responded when His name was called. None of the other corpses came out of the grave at that time....see what I mean?
Did lazarus come out first,then Jesus said,oh well I guess I will choose him to come out? Free- which way makes plain sense?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast. Were the apostles saved before Pentecost?

Heres what I see there;
14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

It was a transitional period.Some Ot saints were alive when the Nt came into being.
Spirit baptism is at Pentecost. Here they are told to receive the Spirit.

Hope this helps, not sure what you are asking for sure, but if does not help,clarify the question somemore.

 

[Iconoclast]

Heres what I see there;
14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach


21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

It was a transitional period.Some Ot saints were alive when the Nt came into being.
Spirit baptism is at Pentecost. Here they are told to receive the Spirit.

Hope this helps, not sure what you are asking for sure, but if does not help,clarify the question somemore.

Here is another key section;

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[freeatlast]

Free,
A believer believes...yes ,he repents yes he trusts,yes
The question is;


27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven

Our part is being brought from death to life by God.

Free what part are we going to have when God raises us on the last day....
Like lazarus....what was His part....what choice did he have being dead.

Having been given life he responded when His name was called. None of the other corpses came out of the grave at that time....see what I mean?
Did lazarus come out first,then Jesus said,oh well I guess I will choose him to come out? Free- which way makes plain sense?

Iconoclast I certainly believe those two passages, but they have no connection to this discussion. In 1Cor Paul is speaking to a group that was puffed up in pride about their supposedly spiritual condition which was brought about by the fullness of the spiritual gifts they had. It was not limited to that but most likely that carried a great weight in their pride. Every gift they had was given to them.

In John the passage is speaking of Christ verses John as to why Jesus is outshining John in the peoples eyes and some of Johns disciples are questioning why. John replies with because it has been given Him.

I try never to eisegete a passage and to carry these two verses over into this discussion I would have to do just that. I do agree that we are given repentance, and faith as well as a basic ability to desire more. However I do not go so far as to say we are bound to exercise those things. I believe that we have a part in the process and that is we can reject what we have been given. Read Matt 25:14-30. That is a clear teaching that all have been given enough to respond and if needed get more to be saved, but if we chose not to exercise what we have it is taken away and we are lost. We have a part in this matter.

 

[mandym]

This distinction is made by context and implication,

Which serves to prove my point in the other thread

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1663143&postcount=21

 

[Iconoclast]

Which serves to prove my point in the other thread

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1663143&postcount=21

This is the problematic attitude of Calvinists and why they are so brazen. Whether you intended it to be or not it is arrogant and in fact not true. The problem with it is the instance that God refuses to offer grace to some people. It just cannot be back up with scripture as hard as you might try. And the false doctrine of "effectual calling" is not layed out in scripture but imposed on a few choice passages.
__________________

What you see as arrogant is the contrast between reality and your false theological ideas.

lets see it right here;you say-

The problem with it is the instance that God refuses to offer grace to some people.

Where do you see in scripture that God has to offer grace to anyone?

Where do you see that he offers grace to all?

When Jesus was on the cross,people around the world were dying in their sins and headed for second death.without ever hearing the gospel.What verse do you believe teaches God was obligated to offer grace to them?

The only obligation God has is to His Eternal covenant,The oath that He has declared to us in scripture. Your failure to view scripture in light of the covenants leads you away from truth...and leaves you with irrational,emotional conclusions.

I have a friend in the jungle of indonesia....he ministers to people who were idolaters,and before he got there they did not know of the true God. His arrogant calvinism did not stop him from going into this jungle where he has gotten malaria,and dengue fever several times, much less that 90% of the island are fanatical muslims,so his life is on the line.
His arrogant calvinism teaches him that the children of God are scattered throughout the world,so he went searching for some of the elect sheep.

I would like you to answer the questions I have asked...with any scriptural support you believe teaches that God must offer grace to anyone.
Furthermore I am certain that you cannot respond biblically to the posted sermons, or the articles posted. feel free to show what is posted is in error.

The free offer of the gospel goes out all the time, it is often resisted. The effectual call is not ultimately resisted.

 

[Tom Butler]

I think it's interesting that Paul has a name for those whom God has justified. It is The Called.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. These are the same people he predestinated. Every one he predestinated, he called; every one he called, without exception, he justified.

Thus, those who are The Called and those he justified are the same. This suggests a specific call, always, uh, effectual, for those who will believe. If this is the case, then it must be distinguished from another kind of call, which is never effective.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think it's interesting that Paul has a name for those whom God has justified. It is The Called.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. These are the same people he predestinated. Every one he predestinated, he called; every one he called, without exception, he justified.

Thus, those who are The Called and those he justified are the same. This suggests a specific call, always, uh, effectual, for those who will believe. If this is the case, then it must be distinguished from another kind of call, which is never effective.

Again.....this is exactly right unless someone is setting themselves as opposed to the truth of God.In the sermon posted earlier, the pastor makes the point that in all the epistles called is used of the saints who have already been effectually called.

 

[mandym]

What you see as arrogant is the contrast between reality and your false theological ideas.

lets see it right here;you say-


Where do you see in scripture that God has to offer grace to anyone?

This is a strawman. I never suggested such

Where do you see that he offers grace to all?

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

When Jesus was on the cross,people around the world were dying in their sins and headed for second death.without ever hearing the gospel.What verse do you believe teaches God was obligated to offer grace to them?

Prove that some died without hearing the gospel.

I would like you to answer the questions I have asked...with any scriptural support you believe teaches that God must offer grace to anyone

Another strawman, I never suggested such nor do I believe it.

Furthermore I am certain that you cannot respond biblically to the posted sermons, or the articles posted. feel free to show what is posted is in error.

I am talking with you. You are the one who displays the unkind arrogance against those who disagree with you. Defend yourself do not rely on the writings of others.

The free offer of the gospel goes out all the time, it is often resisted.

And on that we can agree

The effectual call is not ultimately resisted.

And this can on be believed by an assumption of implication

 

[Rippon]

Prove that some died without hearing the gospel.

Multiplied millions have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. In China alone for centuries many millions heard nothing of the gospel. In Hudson Taylor's time he was rebuked by a Chinaman for the centuries that the west had the gospel but yet didn't share it with China.

I want you to prove that every single person has heard the gospel of Christ.

 

[quantumfaith]

Heres what I see there;
14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach


21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

It was a transitional period.Some Ot saints were alive when the Nt came into being.
Spirit baptism is at Pentecost. Here they are told to receive the Spirit.

Hope this helps, not sure what you are asking for sure, but if does not help,clarify the question somemore.

In the words of Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan, "Heres how you do it". This is a good example of how you gently teach and support the position that you hold.