effectual calling

[Iconoclast]

In the words of Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan, "Heres how you do it". This is a good example of how you gently teach and support the position that you hold.

Quantum,
I would rather try and help someone move ahead in their faith,and look to edify. if there are sincere inquirers I will be patient as I can.
If however people come in to attack the truth of the gospel,make unfounded claims,disparage God, His attributes, His salvation, offer personal attacks, etc, I will seek to contend for the faith once for all time delivered to the saints.
Quantum, I take a firm stand but believe I am open to scriptural correction.
I have seen many who believe they need to"attack calvinism".
This translates to me as a direct attack on the truth of the gospel.
The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus,according to the scriptures constitute the gospel..as the power of God.
I am convinced that many who oppose this truth do not properly understand it. I do not have thin skin and I can take my share of criticism,but I will also speak out against clear error.
Furthermore,I am more than sure that I sometimes post sinfully ,not so much in my content,but more my attitude.
I just drove 800 miles from wyoming,to Iowa....and am winding down.sometimes i am a bit short in my posts,and if I recognize that my attitude was off somewhat,I will attempt an apology. Being tired is not a total excuse, but it might explain some of what I do.....just being honest with you.
I am not patient with blatant heresy however,and that I will always react to.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is a strawman. I never suggested such

No strawman...just a simple question
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Good verses but they do not teach or suggest that everyman ever born has been offered grace.Prove that some died without hearing the gospel.

This is just silly on your part.Multitudes have died without ever hearing the gospel.
You never answered the questions I asked you...just keep saying strawman..
I do not believe you can answer the questions. i will still wait for you to try.
Another strawman, I never suggested such nor do I believe it.



I am talking with you. You are the one who displays the unkind arrogance against those who disagree with you. Defend yourself do not rely on the writings of others.

I post articles and sermons that I believe are helpful,and I believe they reflect the truth of God. I type slow,and am not that smart. I try to post what I know are helpful articles or sermons.
I am willing to defend what I believe however...what would you like to ask.
I will answer you directly,it is not a problem.Do you feel i have been unkind to you? That is not my intent.I am sorry if I have unnecessarily offended you.
Do you have an example of where you believe I have done this?
I would rather help and give bible answers to the questions.
Confidence in the truth of scripture should not be mistaken for arrogance however.And on that we can agree



And this can on be believed by an assumption of implication

I do not agree with you here.My responses are in the middle of the quote, I will underline them.

 

[convicted1]

Multiplied millions have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. In China alone for centuries many millions heard nothing of the gospel. In Hudson Taylor's time he was rebuked by a Chinaman for the centuries that the west had the gospel but yet didn't share it with China.

I want you to prove that every single person has heard the gospel of Christ.

Bro. Rip,

You sure do put a lot into what a "two legged preacher" has to say. There is a "gospel message", and then there is THE Gospel(upper case "G"). Here's proof:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

God does not need a preacher for Him to show someone/anyone their lost condition. When God showed me lost, ruined, undone, doomed for a devil's hell, if I didn't repent of my sins, I was on a school bus heading home. There was no preacher around, no one talking about the Word, no one singing a hymn, etc. I was sitting in my seat minding my own "p's" and "q's", when He showed me what I really was. Right there, God gave me THE Gospel, but I didn't give it all over to him until I was 36.....this happened when I was around 15. I imagine He can do the same for someone who hasn't heard the "gospel message".

Now, mind you, I had been to church several times a few years before that, I can can remember the "SOUND" that the preachers made when they preached, but I can't remember what they said. Here is a verse I really love!!

Psa. 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

So, anyone can hear the "gospel message" and die lost. Hearing this message isn't a guarantee of salvation. Only those who choose to obey His voice will be saved!!

Psa. 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Rippon]

Bro. Rip,

You sure do put a lot into what a "two legged preacher" has to say.

I never heard the expression of a "two legged preacher"before. What are you talking about?

There is a "gospel message", and then there is THE Gospel(upper case "G"). Here's proof:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

There is only one gospel --not two varieties. And those verses have nothing to do with my post #19.

God does not need a preacher for Him to show someone/anyone their lost condition.

What about:"How shall they hear without a preacher?" Is that in your Bible?

Psa. 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

Great verse! But it has nothing to do with my former post. It certainly doesn't refute what I said.

So, anyone can hear the "gospel message" and die lost. Hearing this message isn't a guarantee of salvation. Only those who choose to obey His voice will be saved!!

Many have died never having the privilege of sitting under the sound of the gospel --obeying or not.

Psa. 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

Again --good passage. But it is not relevant to the subject under discussion.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand that you believe that, but I don't. I believe that we play a part in salvation. We hear and we have to choose.

Freeatlast,
Did you listen to the sermons I posted for you? We could interact with them if you like.They answer your questions completely.

The two verses I offered were not meant to exegete the Book of 1 cor, or the gospel of John. The principle taught in those verses holds if rightly understood. No eisegesis......just taking the principle and applying it.

That distracted you from the questions I asked you.

What part did you have;
1] in your conception ?
2] in your physical birth?
3] in the work of God in giving you new life?
4] in your bodily resurrection?

 

[mandym]

I do not agree with you here.My responses are in the middle of the quote, I will underline them.

You keep asking me to provide scripture to prove ideas I never espoused. Not sure how to say that. Therefore your questions are a strawman. I have no need to provide scripture to support ideas I neither believe or espoused.

So are we now clear? I do not believe nor have I said or implied in any form the ideas you have asked me to provide scripture for. I do hope you can now see both your strawman and that I have no need to answer questions I do not espouse.


Does anyone else understand what I am saying here?

 

[Iconoclast]

You keep asking me to provide scripture to prove ideas I never espoused. Not sure how to say that. Therefore your questions are a strawman. I have no need to provide scripture to support ideas I neither believe or espoused.

So are we now clear? I do not believe nor have I said or implied in any form the ideas you have asked me to provide scripture for. I do hope you can now see both your strawman and that I have no need to answer questions I do not espouse.


Does anyone else understand what I am saying here?

Here is your post #21 from the foreknowledge thread;

This is the problematic attitude of Calvinists and why they are so brazen. Whether you intended it to be or not it is arrogant and in fact not true. The problem with it is the instance that God refuses to offer grace to some people. It just cannot be back up with scripture as hard as you might try. And the false doctrine of "effectual calling" is not layed out in scripture but imposed on a few choice passages. __________________

This is your post is it not?? I responded to the link you posted in here.
Did you read the articles, or listen to the sermons.? You complained that I was just posting other peoples writings,so I said to you I will speak directly to any question you can come up with.

So where is your question? You deny there is an effectual call???
What did you mean when you posted this in post#21;

The problem with it is the instance that God refuses to offer grace to some people. It just cannot be back up with scripture as hard as you might try.

Ask a clear question.

 

[mandym]

Here is your post #21 from the foreknowledge thread;


This is your post is it not?? I responded to the link you posted in here.
Did you read the articles, or listen to the sermons.? You complained that I was just posting other peoples writings,so I said to you I will speak directly to any question you can come up with.

So where is your question? You deny there is an effectual call???
What did you mean when you posted this in post#21;


Ask a clear question.

Yes I deny it and it has nothing to do with the questions you keep asking. Nothing at all. Such as :

Where do you see in scripture that God has to offer grace to anyone?

What verse do you believe teaches God was obligated to offer grace to them?

with any scriptural support you believe teaches that God must offer grace to anyone

I never suggested anything like any of these questions. And my assertion that your personal view of grace is in error does not lead to these questions. Not sure how you got to them. And by the way my ultimate argument is that your personal doctrine stands and falls by mere implication by even your own words is where you go wrong. You just can't back it up without imposing on others ideas and questions never espoused by them. So rather than defend your personal doctrine you redirect with irrelevant questions that do not address anything I have said. Again...thus your strawman.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mandy
I see you do not understand so I will make it clear for you.
you said this in your post....

This is the problematic attitude of Calvinists and why they are so brazen. Whether you intended it to be or not it is arrogant and in fact not true. The problem with it is the instance that God refuses to offer grace to some people. It just cannot be back up with scripture as hard as you might try. And the false doctrine of "effectual calling" is not layed out in scripture but imposed on a few choice passages. __________________

Here is what I responded to in your post.

you said;

The problem with it is the instance that God refuses to offer grace to some people. It just cannot be back up with scripture as hard as you might try.

I think you meant to say...the problem with it,is the [insistence] that God refuses to offer grace

You said this about grace
Then you answer with this;

never suggested anything like any of these questions. And my assertion that your personal view of grace is in error does not lead to these questions. Not sure how you got to them.

you brought up the idea of grace being offered....
So I asked you very simply;

Where do you see in scripture that God has to offer grace to anyone?

Quote:
What verse do you believe teaches God was obligated to offer grace to them?

Quote:
with any scriptural support you believe teaches that God must offer grace to anyone

It was you that said that calvinists teach that God refuses to offer grace to some people.

So the three questions I asked you are directly on your complaint about calvinist teaching........you cannot answer the questions so you type out jn 3:16???? Then you say these questions are a strawman???

So I ask you again.....forget the other posts for a minute...
What question do you have about effectual calling? Ask a clear question,I will give you a clear answer.
Here is a description of effectual calling from the 1689 confession of faith;

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

Do you have any questions about this?
Do you understand what it says?

Also you say that my view of grace is in error....could you ask a specific question about what you think I believe that is error.I am not sure what you mean by this.What error are you talking about?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I never heard the expression of a "two legged preacher"before. What are you talking about?

Rip....since he never responded Im guessing its a WVA Colloquialism, like Y'all.

 

[mandym]

Mandy
I see you do not understand so I will make it clear for you.

I understand clearly

I think you meant to say...the problem with it,is the [insistence] that God refuses to offer grace

If my mispelling confused I apologize.

It was you that said that calvinists teach that God refuses to offer grace to some people.

Is this incorrect?

So the three questions I asked you are directly on your complaint about calvinist teaching..

Again no they don't. They have nothing to do what I said.

......you cannot answer the questions so you type out jn 3:16????

That is not what happen I suggest you go back and reread it.

Then you say these questions are a strawman???

They have nothing to do with my statement.

So I ask you again.....forget the other posts for a minute...
What question do you have about effectual calling? Ask a clear question,I will give you a clear answer.

I have none. But if you believe I have misrepresented the Calvinist position then address that instead of running around the the bush asking questions unrelated to what I said.

Here is a description of effectual calling from the 1689 confession of faith;


Do you have any questions about this?
Do you understand what it says?

Also you say that my view of grace is in error....could you ask a specific question about what you think I believe that is error.I am not sure what you mean by this.What error are you talking about?

There error is that God does not offer grace to some people but only to the Calvinist view of the elect. Those who are not elect will never receive an offer of grace according to the Calvinist view.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I understand clearly



If my mispelling confused I apologize.



Is this incorrect?



Again no they don't. They have nothing to do what I said.



That is not what happen I suggest you go back and reread it.



They have nothing to do with my statement.



I have none. But if you believe I have misrepresented the Calvinist position then address that instead of running around the the bush asking questions unrelated to what I said.




There error is that God does not offer grace to some people but only to the Calvinist view of the elect. Those who are not elect will never receive an offer of grace according to the Calvinist view.

My Brother Icono is what I consider a very gracious Calvinist who wishes for everyone he comes in contact with to know Christ. Why else would he come on here & attempt to explain the Christian Faith through what he considers to be the correct theology, after driving a truck for straight thru 800 Miles. If you want to reject his help because you reject his theological interpretations, just tell him flat. Then the poor man can get to some real important stuff like study & sleep instead of spinning his wheels with you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mandy,
Thanks for your question....you asked;
[QUOTEThere error is that God does not offer grace to some people but only to the Calvinist view of the elect. Those who are not elect will never receive an offer of grace according to the Calvinist view][/QUOTE]

Mandy, God is good to all men,he sends rain upon the just,and the unjust
mt5.....the goodness of God is meant to lead men to repentance,rom2

Jesus wept of Jerusalem,mt23...but as he observed the response of the unbelievers he said...."but you would not"

The unsaved do not want to come,unless and until God makes them willing.
God making them Willing, by His grace. We see in scripture that many perish, Jesus says depart from me,you who work iniquity.

The saving grace of God...which saves everyone it is sent to..does not go to all men,or all men would be saved.

All that the Father gives.....shall come.......all given or graced,come.
Do you see it in jn 6:37-44?

 

[mandym]

..does not go to all men,or all men would be saved.

I disagree

All that the Father gives.....shall come.......all given or graced,come.
Do you see it in jn 6:37-44?

No its not there

 

[mandym]

My Brother Icono is what I consider a very gracious Calvinist who wishes for everyone he comes in contact with to know Christ. Why else would he come on here & attempt to explain the Christian Faith through what he considers to be the correct theology, after driving a truck for straight thru 800 Miles. If you want to reject his help because you reject his theological interpretations, just tell him flat. Then the poor man can get to some real important stuff like study & sleep instead of spinning his wheels with you.

I would suggest that you mind your own business. He, being a grown man, can speak for himself. And his very words in this thread have lacked the graciousness you claim. Your agreement with his personal doctrine is clouding your judgment.

 

[Iconoclast]

I disagree



No its not there

Jesus said......ALL that The Father gives SHALL COME.

What do you mean when you say....no it is not there?

Mandy....list 5 questions that you think get at your objections,and I will respond.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mandy,
Have not seen any response.
Could you elaborate on your statements?

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

..does not go to all men,or all men would be saved.

I disagree


Quote:
All that the Father gives.....shall come.......all given or graced,come.
Do you see it in jn 6:37-44?

No its not there

 

[convicted1]

I never heard the expression of a "two legged preacher"before. What are you talking about?

Sorry about the "tardiness" of this response. What I mean by this expression is just a "man", and nothing else. Sure, a man can be "legless", and still preach, but this is just an old saying, and nothing else to look into.

There is only one gospel --not two varieties. And those verses have nothing to do with my post #19.

I never once implied there were two gospels, whatsoever. You read into something that wasn't there to begin with. Here's what I meant concerning my previous post directed towards you. A man can have perfect hearing, and be deaf as a door, correct? A man can be deaf, and have perfect hearing, correct? What do I mean by these two questions? My wife has no hearing problems whatsoever, but whenever someone talks about the bible, she seems so uninterested, its pitiful(please pray for her!!). This is like the "gospel message" she would hear, and God not drawing her....she's deaf in hearing in this instance. Now, when God begins drawing her, and she gets worried about the condition her soul is in, then God shows her THE Gospel. Let's take a closer look at these two verses here:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

When God comes to a sinner, and shows them their lost state, that is THE Gospel presented to them. When God showed me lost and that I needed to serve Him, there was no preaching, singing, shouting praises unto Him, etc. I was sitting on a school bus heading home. Now, whenever the conviction takes hold on one's life, then, and only then, can the hear the "gospel message". Do you see what I am getting at? Unless God removes the veil, we can not understand His Word.

What about:"How shall they hear without a preacher?" Is that in your Bible?

I love that verse, but Romans 10:9-17 is the most abused passage in the bible. Here is why I say that. I will break this down. If you hold to a literal interpretation, the "deaf/mute" has no hope of salvation whatsoever!!

Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. How can a "deaf/mute", or even a "mute" person do this confession with their mouth if they can not give a "verbal confession"????

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Aaaah!! But a "deaf/mute" can believe from the heart!!

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Again, a "deaf/mute" can do this!!

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.Again, a "deaf/mute" can do this!! They can call out to Him from the depths of their heart!!

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again, a "deaf/mute" can do this!!

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? That which I bolded and underlined is something they can do. They can "hear" God when He speaks to them. But the last sentence is something impossible for them to do, is hear from a preacher.

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So, I hold to the "spiritual" interpretation of this passage. It's with the heart man believes unto righteousness. It first goes to the heart, and then from the mouth. Whenever someone is saved, you can tell it, even without them saying a word. There is a feeling, or better, a witness of our spirits bearing witness with each other!!

Psa. 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

The reason why I used this verse is because whenever God speaks to someone, saint OR sinner, they know His voice. And those who OBEY will He gather when Jesus comes in the cloud.

Psa. 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

I used this verse to prove that anything we do, it takes Him to bless it. We can not even breathe unless He blesses us to do so. We can not come to Him unless He first draws us. We can not hear THE Gospel, unless He first shows us what we are!! Only when He removes the veil from our face, are we able to see, and to hear Him!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Rippon]

a gospel message and then The Gospel

I never once implied there were two gospels, whatsoever. You read into something that wasn't there to begin with.

You said that there is a gospel message and then there is The Gospel. That sure sounds like to gospels to me. If you'd like to back up and say you have changed your mind about this that would be good.

I love that verse, but Romans 10:9-17 is the most abused passage in the Bible.

I don't know about that --there are plenty of others.

Here is why I say that. I will break this down. If you hold to a literal interpretation, the "deaf/mute" has no hope of salvation whatsoever!!

The Lord made the mute. His elect among the mute will "hear" the gospel. Don't take "hear" too literally.

The rest of your post,as I said in my pervious one -- has nothing to do with what I raised in my post numbered 19. I wish you would address the issues I brought up.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would suggest that you mind your own business. He, being a grown man, can speak for himself. And his very words in this thread have lacked the graciousness you claim. Your agreement with his personal doctrine is clouding your judgment.

I would suggest you take a long walk off a short pier. And if you think Calvinism clouds my judgment, Im assuming you will start questioning my salvation next.....bring it on!