Either .... Or

[jbh28]

No one here has denied that and you know it.

Actually there have been....

Deal with my actual views please or we are just going to keep going in circles. I affirm that we are born enemies of God, but I also believe that is why God sent a message meant to make an appeal for his enemies to be reconciled. There is nothing in scripture to indicate that gospel appeal doesn't have the ability to enable reconciliation.

Oh the classic "and you know it." I'm only going by what you write. I never purposefully misrepresent anyone's views. I find doing that to be dishonest. If I think one's view is wrong, I have no need to misrepresent it. If you feel I've misrepresented you, understand that I have not done it on purpose.

here's what you said...

You define free as "doing what ever he wants", but you fail to point out that what he wants is determined by his nature, which was determined by God in such a manner than it could not have been otherwise.

You either believe man's nature is corrupt or not. You say it is. Good, but you wording made it sound like you didn't.

Then explain what you meant when you said, "It cannot be said he chose believers to be justified." Believers are already justified."

Because Paul is giving thanks to God for choosing these people for salvation. He thanks him for choosing to justify them. You can't say he choose believers to be justified because they already are justified. They were justified the moment that they believed. What you are doing is reading something into the text that's not there. It doesn't say that he chose to justify them because they believed. It simply says he choose to justify them.

If you don't mean that believers are justified prior to believing then what is your point? Because my point is that God has chosen to justify whosoever believes. Why would you argue against that point with the statement above if it doesn't mean that?

but the passage in no way says that.

I agree, which is why I'd like for just one of you to correctly represent your opponents view of predestination and election.

I do. There are many that believe that God choose to save people by looking ahead and seeing who would be saved and then choosing them. You believe that God choose to justify those that believe. Not much different, but a difference. Either way, Ephesians 1 doesn't say that.

 

[Skandelon]

Actually there have been....

Quote it or forget it.

You either believe man's nature is corrupt or not. You say it is. Good, but you wording made it sound like you didn't.

I just don't believe it is more corrupt than the Gospel is powerful. Understand now? You think our corruption is more powerful than the gospel appeal, and I don't. You think man's corruption must be overcome FIRST and then the gospel is powerful to make an appeal, which is backwards. The appeal of the gospel is for enemies who are corrupt, not those who've already been made alive.

You can't say he choose believers to be justified because they already are justified.They were justified the moment that they believed.

You are not understanding. I'm saying that He decided before the foundation of the world what will happen to those who believe. Those who believe will be justified the moment that they believed (as you put it). I'm not saying God waits for them to believe and then chooses to justify them as you seem to think. He has chosen whosoever believes to be justified, adopted, conformed and glorified. He has predetermined what he is going to do for all those who come to faith in Him. Understand now?

What you are doing is reading something into the text that's not there. It doesn't say that he chose to justify them because they believed. It simply says he choose to justify them.

Actually it says he chose 'us.' Who is 'us'? Believers. The Church. Saints. He has chosen for those who believe to BECOME like Christ. It doesn't say he individually chose us to become believers, it says he chose 'us' (those who are believers as a people) to be justified, conformed, adopted.

A pilot can choose his destination before all the passengers get on his plane. A Coach can choose to have a well conditioned team before anyone signs up to play. Likewise, God can choose to justify, adopt, conform whosoever believes.

There are many that believe that God choose to save people by looking ahead and seeing who would be saved and then choosing them.

In my opinion those people are ignorant of the actual views of scholars who hold to my view. Hershel Hobbs one of the writers of the BF&M didn't believe that. He believes as I have explained, and he better represents the historic Baptist position of non-Calvinistic scholars.

The view you have described would be equivalent to someone saying, "Calvinism teaches pure fatalism." As if there is no other alternative for your views. You would reject that even if I said 'many people believe that way,' wouldn't you?

You believe that God choose to justify those that believe.

Better stated: God chose to justify whosoever believes. The way you stated it makes it appear God is waiting for an individual to believe and then He chooses to justify him based on that person's individual response. You are still reading it individualistically. God, the great Shepherd, has chosen what is going to happen to WHOEVER enters his fold by faith, even if they aren't the 'elect' of God (Israel). That is Paul's intent.

 

[jbh28]

Quote it or forget it.

Winman is one. I don't have time to go and find it, but I'm sure he would agree with me that he doesn't believe man is born with a sinful nature.

I just don't believe it is more corrupt than the Gospel is powerful. Understand now? You think our corruption is more powerful than the gospel appeal, and I don't. You think man's corruption must be overcome FIRST and then the gospel is powerful to make an appeal, which is backwards. The appeal of the gospel is for enemies who are corrupt, not those who've already been made alive.

What do you mean by the "appeal of the Gospel"?

You are not understanding. I'm saying that He decided before the foundation of the world what will happen to those who believe. Those who believe will be justified the moment that they believed (as you put it). I'm not saying God waits for them to believe and then chooses to justify them as you seem to think. He has chosen whosoever believes to be justified, adopted, conformed and glorified. He has predetermined what he is going to do for all those who come to faith in Him. Understand now?

Yes. But that's not what the passage says.

Actually it says he chose 'us.' Who is 'us'? Believers. The Church. Saints. He has chosen for those who believe to BECOME like Christ. It doesn't say he individually chose us to become believers, it says he chose 'us' (those who are believers as a people) to be justified, conformed, adopted.

Who had already been justified, conformed and adopted. You are still reading something into the text.

In my opinion those people are ignorant of the actual views of scholars who hold to my view. Hershel Hobbs one of the writers of the BF&M didn't believe that. He believes as I have explained, and he better represents the historic Baptist position of non-Calvinistic scholars.

The view you have described would be equivalent to someone saying, "Calvinism teaches pure fatalism." As if there is no other alternative for your views. You would reject that even if I said 'many people believe that way,' wouldn't you?

Of course. I understand(at least I try) the difference you are making. I don't honestly see that much of a difference in reality though with it. I'll explain below.

Better stated: God chose to justify whosoever believes. The way you stated it makes it appear God is waiting for an individual to believe and then He chooses to justify him based on that person's individual response. You are still reading it individualistically. God, the great Shepherd, has chosen what is going to happen to WHOEVER enters his fold by faith, even if they aren't the 'elect' of God (Israel). That is Paul's intent.

These people are individuals. Paul is praising God for choosing to justify them before the foundation of the world. What you are reading into the text is that God choose to justify them because they believed.


Here is John. John is a believer. Did God choose to save him before the foundation of the world? Yes according to Ephesians 1. He can praise God for choosing to justify him.

Here is a group of believers. Did God choose to save them before the foundation of the world? Yes according to Ephesians 1. They can praise God for choosing to justify them.

 

[Winman]

JBH wrote;

Winman is one. I don't have time to go and find it, but I'm sure he would agree with me that he doesn't believe man is born with a sinful nature.

Correct. I do not believe man is BORN with a sinful nature, but develops a sinful nature very early in life.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The scriptures say God has made man upright, not sinful. But the scriptures also say that all men have gone astray and become unprofitable.

No where do the scriptures say man lost the true ability to make a choice, in fact the scriptures clearly show men making choices toward God.

Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

Now, I have just shown scripture that shows man has the ability to choose the Lord to serve him, now you show me scripture that says man lost the ability to choose God.

 

[jbh28]

JBH wrote;



Correct. I do not believe man is BORN with a sinful nature, but develops a sinful nature very early in life.

I thought that's what you believed. Glad I didn't misrepresent you.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The scriptures say God has made man upright, not sinful. But the scriptures also say that all men have gone astray and become unprofitable.

Correct. God made man(Adam) "upright."

No where do the scriptures say man lost the true ability to make a choice, in fact the scriptures clearly show men making choices toward God.

No where have I said man lost his true ability to choose. Men choose based on their desires.

Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

Now, I have just shown scripture that shows man has the ability to choose the Lord to serve him, now you show me scripture that says man lost the ability to choose God.

Of course we choose God. The question is why do we choose God.

 

[Winman]

I thought that's what you believed. Glad I didn't misrepresent you.

No, but I am exceptional, most here believe in original sin. I used to, until I read many scriptures that I believe clearly refute it.

Correct. God made man(Adam) "upright."

Not so, the word "they" is plural, showing this verse is speaking of all men, and not Adam alone.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The word "they" points directly to the word "man" showing this is speaking of all men. This is basic grammar.

No where have I said man lost his true ability to choose. Men choose based on their desires.

You indeed say all men can choose, but they only have the ability to choose against God. Choice to you really means non-choice and is a contradiction.

Suppose I came upon a dead corpse. I tell the corpse it has the choice to lie there dead, or to stand up alive. I have given the corpse a choice in your view. But can the corpse make a choice? NO.

If you do not possess the true ability to choose either option, then you do not have free will. Your definition of free will is an enslaved will which is another contradiction.

I think it was Augustine who called it "the freedom of slavery". How intelligent folks can believe such an obvious contradiction is beyond me, but obviously many can.

Of course we choose God. The question is why do we choose God.

A man chooses God because he is convinced he is a sinner worthy of death. He chooses God because he believes God's word is true and that Jesus died for his sins and rose again, and that if he will trust Christ he will be saved.

A man believes because the word of God convicts him of what he knows to be true, that he is a sinner, and the love of God calls him to be forgiven by trusting in Christ.

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Why would Paul need to persuade men's minds who have been regenerated? If we are instantly given a new heart, then what need is there of persuasion?

Paul never says a man is regenerated to believe, he says men are persuaded to believe.

 

[jbh28]

Not so, the word "they" is plural, showing this verse is speaking of all men, and not Adam alone.

They(all men) have gone bad. Man(Adam, singular) was made upright.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The word "they" points directly to the word "man" showing this is speaking of all men. This is basic grammar.

So you have a grammar error if that's so. Man is singular. Or, God made man(Adam) upright, but "they"(all men) have "sought out many inventions."

You indeed say all men can choose, but they only have the ability to choose against God. Choice to you really means non-choice and is a contradiction.

so I guess we will have "non-choice" and is a "contradiction" to say that people in heaven will not desire to sin. Don't contradict yourself.

If you do not possess the true ability to choose either option, then you do not have free will. Your definition of free will is an enslaved will which is another contradiction.

So no free will in heaven then?

A man chooses God because he is convinced he is a sinner worthy of death. He chooses God because he believes God's word is true and that Jesus died for his sins and rose again, and that if he will trust Christ he will be saved.

A man believes because the word of God convicts him of what he knows to be true, that he is a sinner, and the love of God calls him to be forgiven by trusting in Christ.

It's the holy Spirit that uses the word of God that convicts man. John 16:8-9

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Why would Paul need to persuade men's minds who have been regenerated? If we are instantly given a new heart, then what need is there of persuasion?

Paul never says a man is regenerated to believe, he says men are persuaded to believe.

I guess this was meant for someone else or you have amnesia

 

[Winman]

They(all men) have gone bad. Man(Adam, singular) was made upright.

Now you are being silly, that is unlike you. You know well that the word "they" is referring directly to the word "man".

So you have a grammar error if that's so. Man is singular. Or, God made man(Adam) upright, but "they"(all men) have "sought out many inventions."

Again, you are being silly and even disingenuous here. You know quite well the word "man" can and often does apply to all men.

so I guess we will have "non-choice" and is a "contradiction" to say that people in heaven will not desire to sin. Don't contradict yourself.

An "enslaved" will is a contradiction in itself. There is no such thing as an enslaved will. "Will" means you have the ability to make your own choice, and no one or anything can prevent you from making that choice, it is yours to do with as you wish.

So no free will in heaven then?

I absolutely believe we will have free will in heaven, but we have already chosen for God in this life.

All of the angels had free will, only one third rebelled. So, having free will does not mean a person MUST sin, only that they have the ability to CHOOSE to sin.

It's the holy Spirit that uses the word of God that convicts man. John 16:8-9

Exactly. But the scriptures do not say the Holy Spirit regenerates a man so that he might believe. A man can be convicted, and yet not believe.

Jhn 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

These men heard Jesus's words (the Word of God) and were deeply convicted by it, but were not regenerated. This proves that conviction does not equal regeneration. These were men who were trying to trick Jesus and find a way of making accusation against him, hardly the works of a regenerate man.

I guess this was meant for someone else or you have amnesia

If I have amnesia I have forgotten all about it.

 

[jbh28]

Now you are being silly, that is unlike you. You know well that the word "they" is referring directly to the word "man".

Again, you are being silly and even disingenuous here. You know quite well the word "man" can and often does apply to all men.

Can and does are two different terms. But I guess you can resort to "silly" if you don't really have an answer to what I said.

An "enslaved" will is a contradiction in itself. There is no such thing as an enslaved will. "Will" means you have the ability to make your own choice, and no one or anything can prevent you from making that choice, it is yours to do with as you wish.

Jesus says that those that sin are a slave to sin.

I absolutely believe we will have free will in heaven, but we have already chosen for God in this life.

So you can have free will and not have a desire to (fill in the blank). So then I wasn't making a contradiction.

All of the angels had free will, only one third rebelled. So, having free will does not mean a person MUST sin, only that they have the ability to CHOOSE to sin.

We've been over this before.... I believe that they don't desire to come to God. Unsaved people can make "good" choices. But they never make them for the glory of God, so in that sense they can only sin.

If I have amnesia I have forgotten all about it.

you sure you forgot?

 

[Skandelon]

What do you mean by the "appeal of the Gospel"?

The appeal of God sent to all mankind calling them to be reconciled. An appeal is a 'request,' 'invitation,' or 'pleading.'

Of course. I understand(at least I try) the difference you are making. I don't honestly see that much of a difference in reality though with it. I'll explain below.

These people are individuals. Paul is praising God for choosing to justify them before the foundation of the world. What you are reading into the text is that God choose to justify them because they believed.

I need you to attempt to restate what I believe so I can know you understand our view because it still appears you think we believe God's choice to justify an individual is based upon God's foreknowledge of that individual's faith. You don't seem able to understand the corporate interpretation because you have grown so accustom to think it is about individuals only. You prove that again below...

Here is John. John is a believer. Did God choose to save him before the foundation of the world? Yes according to Ephesians 1. He can praise God for choosing to justify him.

See? You read it as if Paul had to be talking about God's choice to make John a believer so as to justify him, but that is reading something into the text that is not there. Look at it this way:

Here is a small group of Jews who believe in Christ and are going to the Gentiles to share with them the gospel. Many Gentiles are also believing, but many of the other Jews are arguing, "NO, we are the elect ones, not those unclean barbarians! God didn't choose them!" Paul reminds his readers that God chose whosoever believes, Jew or Gentile, (US) to be justified, adopted and conformed. This was His divine plan from the beginning. It's not about individual lost people from each nation being preselected, it is about God's choice to individually save whosoever believes regardless of their nationality. That was the fight of Paul's day. Had he been arguing for Calvinism there would have been a whole different fight going on and MUCH different response from his readers.

 

[jbh28]

See? You read it as if Paul had to be talking about God's choice to make John a believer so as to justify him, but that is reading something into the text that is not there. Look at it this way:

Here is a small group of Jews who believe in Christ and are going to the Gentiles to share with them the gospel. Many Gentiles are also believing, but many of the other Jews are arguing, "NO, we are the elect ones, not those unclean barbarians! God didn't choose them!" Paul reminds his readers that God chose whosoever believes, Jew or Gentile, (US) to be justified, adopted and conformed. This was His divine plan from the beginning. It's not about individual lost people from each nation being preselected, it is about God's choice to individually save whosoever believes regardless of their nationality. That was the fight of Paul's day. Had he been arguing for Calvinism there would have been a whole different fight going on and MUCH different response from his readers.

Could you please support that from the context of Ephesians? Paul says thanks for God choosing to save them. So they can thank God for choosing to justify them. It is about individual lost people being saved because that's how we get saved. You keep reading the corporate election thing into the text. something that's not there. The passage never says that it was God's choice to save whoever believes. That's true(John 3:16), but not what Paul says here. Paul thanks God for choosing before the foundation of the world to save these people. The people can thank God for choosing them. John can thank God for choosing him. There's nothing in the context about God choosing gentiles in addition to Jews. That's also in the Bible, but not here. The text says he chose "us in him before the foundation of the world." It doesn't say, God choose to also save gentiles.

 

[Skandelon]

Paul thanks God for choosing before the foundation of the world to save these people.

Right and who are "these people?"

Option 1: Individuals preselected by God from all nations to the neglect of the mass of humanity who will certainly die without hope of ever being saved.

Option 2: Whosoever believes regardless of their nationality.

One of them is GOOD NEWS, and one of them is REALLY REALLY bad new for most of the world. One of them lines up with Jesus' teaching in John 3:16 and else where, the other lines up with the elitist view of the Jews who thought only they were chosen and no one else was.

The people can thank God for choosing them. John can thank God for choosing him.

Yes, he can. He can thank God for choosing to save whosoever believes, which he did. And Joe Heathen, who rejects God, will perish because he refused to accept this truth and so be saved, not because he wasn't chosen to receive it.

There's nothing in the context about God choosing gentiles in addition to Jews. That's also in the Bible, but not here.

It is an undertone throughout all the NT because that is the major debate of the day. It is the 'mystery' which is just now being fully revealed through men like Paul. Even in this text this undertone is quite evident.

Many stop reading after verse 11, but read on:

"12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."

Notice how he sets "we" (those of Israel first to hope in Christ) and 'you also' (the Gentiles who believe the gospel). This is common in Paul's writings. (Also notice that the HS mark comes as a result of believing, not prior...but that is another thread.)

 

[jbh28]

Right and who are "these people?"

Option 1: Individuals preselected by God from all nations to the neglect of the mass of humanity who will certainly die without hope of ever being saved.

Option 2: Whosoever believes regardless of their nationality.

One of them is GOOD NEWS, and one of them is REALLY REALLY bad new for most of the world. One of them lines up with Jesus' teaching in John 3:16 and else where, the other lines up with the elitist view of the Jews who thought only they were chosen and no one else was.

Both line up with Jesus' teaching in John 3:16. Both do. Those who have not been chosen do not come to Christ. They do not want to come. I do not believe in double predestination by any means. The reason anyone comes is because God chooses them. What a blessing and good news. Whosoever believes will be saved. God not choosing doesn't keep someone from coming. God choosing keeps many from not coming.

Yes, he can. He can thank God for choosing to save whosoever believes, which he did.

Doesn't say that in the text. you are reading something to avoid believing in Election. No where in that text does it say that. Not one place. What you are saying is true(all that believe will be saved) but that's not in this text.

And Joe Heathen, who rejects God, will perish because he refused to accept this truth and so be saved, not because he wasn't chosen to receive it.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree 100%

It is an undertone throughout all the NT because that is the major debate of the day. It is the 'mystery' which is just now being fully revealed through men like Paul. Even in this text this undertone is quite evident.

Yes, but not what it says in Ephesians. We can't plug in what's not there.

Many stop reading after verse 11, but read on:

"12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."

Notice how he sets "we" (those of Israel first to hope in Christ) and 'you also' (the Gentiles who believe the gospel). This is common in Paul's writings. (Also notice that the HS mark comes as a result of believing, not prior...but that is another thread.)

Not even close. I've heard that before. There would have been Jews in Ephesus as well. You reading We as only gentiles is not contextually backed up. We(Paul and those that believed with Paul) and You(believers in Ephesus).

 

[Skandelon]

Both line up with Jesus' teaching in John 3:16. Both do.

Then you are accepting a paradox (apparent contradiction) and appealing to mystery, right? I'm saying its an apparent contradiction not afforded by the text UNLESS you read it with an 'individual' intent, something many scholars do not do and in fact NO SCHOLAR did prior to Augustine.

Those who have not been chosen do not come to Christ. They do not want to come.

Right. The gentiles didn't want to come until they were invited. But now that they are invited they do want to come, if they so choose. Again, you are apply it individually when that is clearly not Paul's intent.

I do not believe in double predestination by any means.

I understand that, but you do know that many Calvinists find your view illogical, right?

The reason anyone comes is because God chooses them.

I agree. How could they come unless they were invited. God chose to send the gospel first to the Jew and then the Gentile. He chose them. If they refused to accept the truth and so be saved that is the reason they are condemned. You're view actually condemns them form birth because they are born unable to desire the gospel appeal.

Doesn't say that in the text. you are reading something to avoid believing in Election.

I believe in Election. I just believe in biblical election, not Calvinistic election.

In biblical election God chooses to invite one group first (Jews) and when they refuse, he chooses to invite another group (Gentiles). See the parable of the wedding banquet.

No where in that text does it say that. Not one place.

Well it also doesn't ever say God chose some individual lost people to become believers, but that his how you interpret it. We are discussing how to interpret what Paul does say and you can take the phrase 'he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy..." as meaning "he chose me and you individually to believe the gospel and thus become holy" or "he chose those of us who believe to become holy." Either way you are INTERPRETING the intent of the author. My way doesn't create an apparent contradiction and conflict. You way does, so my way is better.

Not even close. I've heard that before. There would have been Jews in Ephesus as well. You reading We as only gentiles is not contextually backed up. We(Paul and those that believed with Paul) and You(believers in Ephesus).

Even Calvinistic scholars agree with me on this: Here is a quote from the Geneva Study Bible:

1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who p first trusted in Christ.
(p) He speaks concerning the Jews.
1:13 16 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the q word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were r sealed with that holy s Spirit of promise,

(16) Now he makes the Ephesians (or rather all the Gentiles) equal to the Jews, because even though they came last, being called by the same Gospel, they embraced faith, and were sealed up with the same Spirit, who is the pledge of election, until the inheritance itself is seen. And this is so that in them also the glory of God might shine forth and be manifested. ​

There are many other scholars who support my interpretation, both Cals and non-Cals. It is the most accepted and obvious interpretation of this text.