ekklesia

I am still trying to get to the core of what you are saying.

#1. I agree that what Christ is doing for us as our High Priest in heaven (Heb 7-9) is in fact key to what He means by "preparing a place for us". His role as High Priest is seen in Lev 16 regarding the atonement for mankind.

#2. I agree that all the saved are members of that church - and your Acts 7:38 quote is a great example of that.

#3. In Heb 10 God calls each of us to assemble in local congregations. His word is true there - and in 1Cor 12 we see that the body of Christ is being built up (Eph 4) via the gifts Christ is placing in the church through the Holy Spirit.

Still - I think your point is really about a bigger "distinctive" or am I missing something?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Even though you don't go to any church, you belong to the Heavenly Universal Church, as even the Robber belongs to.

 

Even though you don't go to any church, you belong to the Heavenly Universal Church, as even the Robber belongs to. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]That is an opinion without Scriptural support. Show me from Scripture where it is possible to have a universal assembly. The two are contradictory terms. As long as there is an assembly (rather assemblies) on this earth it cannot be universal--a ridiculous concept. Where would a universal assembly gather? All believer will only gather in heaven after Christ comes.
DHK

 

Jeremiah
7:22
For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.


7:23
But this command I gave them: Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you. </font>[/QUOTE]guess I am missing the point - what does this have to do with the commands of God in Torah in regard to His requirements concerning sacrifices for the feasts?

 

Acts 2 says they were gathered all in one place of one accord in obedience to Jesus' instructions of Acts 1:4 " . . . wait for the promise of the Father". Nothing is said or implied that they observed the feast.

 

Have you not read my previous post?

I mentioned to you Eph 2:20-22. Please read there. It is not ridiculous. Please be patient about it. We don't have to gather in one place, but spiritually all gathered in Jesus Christ, as we are all in Jesus Christ. You are in Jesus Christ, and so am I. Then we are gathered in Jesus Christ, as forming a body of Christ, which is Church. If we think about all the believers today, whether they belong to certain denominations or not, wherever they live, they are in Jesus Christ and belong to the Heavenly Universal Church which was mentioned Eph 2:20-22 and elsewhere.

 

Ephesians 1:20-22 which he worked in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.
22 He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the assembly,

Acts 20:17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to himself the elders of the assembly.

Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.
The above is taken from the WEB

Paul wrote and spoke to the Ephesians, especially the Ephesians pastors in Acts 20. He called them together from Ephesus to meet at Miletus. Note from 20:17, they were the elders (pastors) of the assembly (the congregation that meets regularly on Sundays and other days of the week. It is not invisible or universal (an impossibility), but local. It met in a physical place called Ephesus. It was a local church (assembly).
Ask yourself. Did the church at Ephesus at anytime have the concept of a universal church in mind when Paul wrote to them? The obvious answer is no. That concept is relatively new. There is no uuniversal assembly. The two words are contradictory to each other. If it is local it can't be universal. If it is an assembly it can't assemble if it is universal. This entire concept is ridiculous. The only time that it can happen is in the presence of Christ in heaven.
You say: "We don't have to gather in one place." I'm sorry, but just what is an assembly? It is a gathering of people in one place. In Acts 19 they gathered together in the theater and it was called an assenbly. You can't redefine words to fit your own theology.
Christ was the head of the church of Ephesus, just as he is the head of every Bible believing church today. He has put pastors as the temporal head subject to him, and the members of the church subject to the pastor. The pastor is the overseer of the church.
We are not gathered in Jesus Christ. Where does it say that? That is not a Scriptural statement. You must take statements in the context in which they are given.
DHK

 

We were born again in Jesus Christ:
You are confused with local church. Acts 20:17-28 talks with elders of the local church at Ephesus and therefore you are confused between Local church and Heavenly Universal Church.

Where is the word for Pastor? Where did you get the equalization of Pastor and Overseer?

Paul called elders of the Assembly( singular) at Ephesus, then told them Holy Spirit made them Overseers of the Assembly, and therefore he equalizes Elders with Overseers. Pastor mentioned in Eph 4:11 is the translation from Poimen which means Sheperd. Do you have the job title at the church? Peter mentions himself as an elder ( 1 Pet 5:1) then the elders should sheperd the flock properly ( 1 Pet 5:2). Titus 1 mention about Elders (Tit 1:5) then the qualification of Overseers in 1:7 which is the same as Elders', which means Paul equalizes Elders and Overseers again there.
These are all about Local churches.


Now let's look at Universal Assembly;

Again look at Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Which local church was being built ? Was Paul talking about the Local Assembly in Ephesus? Nope! If you thought so, you have made a big mistake !


Colossians 1;
18 And he is the head of the body, the church : who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
......
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Why is the church mentioned as singular?
Is Jesus the head of one single local church? Why doesn't it say Jesus is the Head of churches?
Of which church was Paul the minister?

 

Since there is no such thing as a "heavenly universal church" at the present time I am not confused at all. You must be the confused one. A church (ekklesia) is an assembly. It is impossible for an assembly to be universal. Words have definitions. Assemblies are not universal.

Did you not read the verses I quoted? They are all there.

Acts 20:17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to himself the elders of the assembly.
Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.(WEB)
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.(KJV)

The words: elder, overseer (bishop), Pastor (shepherd) are all used here in these two verses: all referring to the same people--the leaders of the church of Ephesus. They are different aspects of the same office. A shepherd is a pastor. It is the duty of the pastor to shepherd and feed the flock of his assembly. That is what Paul was teaching the elders, the overseers, the pastors of Ephesus. These men were not different classes of men. They were all the same. They were the pastors of the church--the local church at Ephesus.

Correct. The elders are the overseers. They are different aspects of the same office which we commonly call the pastor.

Yes, we call him the "pastor." His function is to "shepherd" the flock. You find the word in Acts 20:28 as well.

Peter was a shepherd, an elder and an overseer. This is easily seen in Scripture.

I have not made a mistake; you have. Who was Paul writing to? Paul was writing to the Ephesians; not the Americans; not the Europeans; not the Africans; not the South Americans; but the Ephesians, and only to that one church in Ephesus, and that is all. He says:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
--That is how he opens his letter, and I happen to believe him. He does not include a universal so-called church in his letter. He is writing to the saints at Ephesus. To read anything else into that introduction is eisigesis, and making the passage say something it is not saying.

In this passage the church is mentioned in the singular because he is writing to a singular church, the church at Colosse.

Colossians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--Context is important. The saints at Colosse would never be thinking of some mystical universal concept of a church such as you are describing. Paul was writing to their assembly, their local church.
He writes and tells them that Christ is the head of the their church, their assembly, just as he is the head of every Bible-believing church. Is that such a hard concept to grasp.
"And he is the head of the body, the church:" (1:18)
In verse 24, if you look at the context, the verses before and after you see that he is writing about suffering in relation to the church at Ephesus and himself. This has application to us and other churches. But it is an epistle to the Ephesians, to the church at Ephesus. Read it in its context.
DHK

 

Why don't people call the Overseers as sheperds, instead of Pastors?
Bible mentions the leadership as either Overseer or Elder, the word Pastor is not found, but Sheperd is found as Darby translated Eph 4:11. The Word Pastor was invented to justify the clergy system even before KJV. If Pastors are the same as Elders=Overseers, they must be elected in the same manner as mentioned in 1 Tim 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9, instead of stamping thousands and thousands out of the college of Theology every year, like vending machines.
But this matter is all about the local church and our main interest is to understand about the Heavenly Universal Church.


So,we can focus on the latter part of your post as it is the main argument.

I know both letters are addressed to Ephesians and Colossians. Romans were addressed to Romans
(To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints), therefore the message about the Grace and Salvation mentioned in Romans 3:23-25 applies to Romans only, is that what you mean? ( please don't be upset, I just want to point out the problem of your logic)

Eph 2, Col 1:18 are apparently talking about Universal Church, not the single churches of Ephesus and Colosse only, even though they are included there of course.

Apostles and Prophets became the foundation of not only Ephesus church and Colosse church, but also of all the other churches, which means the total universal church. However, Paul doesn't use the plural but singular, which means one body of Christ. Jesus Christ doesn't have many bodies, but one body, which is the Church, the local churches are part of it. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body, Chairman of the whole Congregation, the Superintendant of the Heavenly Universal Church, where Holy Spirit works in continuously.

 

Probably because people are more comfortable with the name "pastor." They do shepherd the flock. It is a Biblical term. It is not unbiblical.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
--What is wrong with using Biblical terminology?

This is all speculation on your part. Where is your proof. The word Pastor means to shepherd. The words come from the same root word.

--A shepherd or a pastor--they are one and the same. What is it? You don't believe in synonyms?
Some churches call the leaders ministers. The word minister simply means servant. So does the word deacon.

The word "apparently" indicates supposition not founded in fact. It is opinion without Biblical basis, and you haven't given any. There is no Biblical basis for a universal assembly. An assembly cannot exist universally. That is a contradition of terms. It is an impossiblility. It is like saying saying "I am going to gather my family together universally." ?? I gather my family together in one place. We have a family reunion in one place, though the members of my family may come from different places. They will assemble, and can only assemble in one place. There is no such thing as a universal assembly. It is a contradiction of terms. It is illogical, doesn't make sense.

If you stopped "at all other churches," you would have it right. When you added on "which means the total universal church," you made a conclusion without facts in place. Christ is the head of every church of which Apostles and prophets are the foundation. That is true. That has nothing to do with some non-existent so-called universal assembly that cannot assemble. Impossible!

You are making your theology up as you go along reading into the Scripture things that are not there. Church was used in the singular because he was writing to one church. That much is evident. Study 1Cor.12:12-27 to get a picture of the body of the local church that Paul describes; a picture that can only describe a local church.
Have you trusted Christ as your Saviour?
Does He dwell in you?
Does He dwell in other believers?
Is Christ divided? Is there more than one Christ?
Is there more than one body?
Your question seems quite ridiculous in that light. Every church is a body of Christ, with Christ as its head. If Christ is not the head of each and every local church, then the church is an apostate church and not worthy to be called a church.

Jesus Christ is the head of the assembly, each and every assembly, each and every congregation. If he isn't the head of your church you are in the wrong church and need to find another one. There is no such thing as a universal assembly. You cannot have an unassembled assembly, which is the definition of a universal church. It is a contradiction of terms.
DHK

 

--A shepherd or a pastor--they are one and the same. What is it? You don't believe in synonyms ?


there is a tricky idea of Mono-Pastoral Clergy System. I have met no pastor who want to be called Sheperd, but sometimes they are called Reverend, which is a blasphemy to God (ps 111:9)

The word "apparently" indicates supposition not founded in fact. It is opinion without Biblical basis, and you haven't given any. There is no Biblical basis for a universal assembly. An assembly cannot exist universally. That is a contradition of terms. It is an impossiblility. It is like saying saying "I am going to gather my family together universally." ?? I gather my family together in one place. We have a family reunion in one place, though the members of my family may come from different places. They will assemble, and can only assemble in one place. There is no such thing as a universal assembly. It is a contradiction of terms. It is illogical, doesn't make sense.

If you stopped "at all other churches," you would have it right. When you added on "which means the total universal church," you made a conclusion without facts in place. Christ is the head of every church of which Apostles and prophets are the foundation. That is true. That has nothing to do with some non-existent so-called universal assembly that cannot assemble. Impossible!

You are making your theology up as you go along reading into the Scripture things that are not there. Church was used in the singular because he was writing to one church. That much is evident. Study 1Cor.12:12-27 to get a picture of the body of the local church that Paul describes; a picture that can only describe a local church.
Have you trusted Christ as your Saviour?
Does He dwell in you?
Does He dwell in other believers?
Is Christ divided? Is there more than one Christ?
Is there more than one body?
Your question seems quite ridiculous in that light. Every church is a body of Christ, with Christ as its head. If Christ is not the head of each and every local church, then the church is an apostate church and not worthy to be called a church.
_____________________________________________
Yes He dwells in me. He is Omni-Present and is the Head of local churches and Head of all the Churches as well.
I never denied that Jesus is the Head of local churches. You misunderstand it! I am not making my theology, but Bible says so, and even Catholic has claimed such deriving from the Bible. I think Calvin mentioned about it as well when he talked about the Catholic Church in his book.

Jesus Christ is the head of the assembly, each and every assembly, each and every congregation. If he isn't the head of your church you are in the wrong church and need to find another one. There is no such thing as a universal assembly. You cannot have an unassembled assembly, which is the definition of a universal church. It is a contradiction of terms.
DHK [/QB][/QUOTE]


Jesus Christ is the Head of each local church, and Head of our local Assembly as He is Omni-Present and Head of Heavenly Universal Assembly as well, based on the Bible which I mentioned.
Eph 5:23-30 mention the Church as Bride of Christ. Is the Bride different from Rev 21:2?

 

I have not invented my theology about Universal Church. Most of the scholars mentioned or implied shortly about the Universal Church, either calling as Catholic Church or not.
They mentioned about it shortly and then went over to Local Churches. Calvin touched about it shortly in the chapter of Holy Catholic Church ( 4th book of Institutes, even though I disagree with him in many aspects.

In my view, Plymouth Brethren have found out and organized the truth about the church very well and there are plenty of articles mentioning about it. I personally feel this is important when we have certain fellowship among the inter-denominational believers. I strongly believe in the Truth which PB have found in Bible, but I do respect the true believers in Jesus Christ as long as they are truly born again. In such case I would say that they are still inside the same Holy( Heavenly) Universal Church, while Judgment on who and which local assemblies are right or wrong belong to God.

You can find some more articles in the following:
PLYMOUTH BRETHREN

[ April 04, 2006, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]