Elaborate churches

Haggai 1:3-15, "Then the word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet, saying, "Is it time for you yourselves to dwell in your paneled houses while this house lies desolate?" Now therefore, thus says the Lord of hosts, "Consider your ways! "You have sown much, but harvest little; you eat, but there is not enough to be satisfied; you drink, but there is not enough to become drunk; you put on clothing, but no one is warm enough; and he who earns, earns wages to put into a purse with holes." Thus says the Lord of hosts, "Consider your ways! "Go up to the mountains, bring wood and rebuild the temple, that I may be pleased with it and be glorified," says the Lord. "You look for much, but behold, it comes to little; when you bring it home, I blow it away. Why?" declares the Lord of hosts, "Because of My house which lies desolate, while each of you runs to his own house. "Therefore, because of you the sky has withheld its dew and the earth has withheld its produce. "I called for a drought on the land, on the mountains, on the grain, on the new wine, on the oil, on what the ground produces, on men, on cattle, and on all the labor of your hands." Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the Lord their God and the words of Haggai the prophet, as the Lord their God had sent him. And the people showed reverence for the Lord. Then Haggai, the messenger of the Lord, spoke by the commission of the Lord to the people saying, " `I am with you,' declares the Lord." So the Lord stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and worked on the house of the Lord of hosts, their God, on the twenty-fourth day of the sixth month in the second year of Darius the king.

 

For ten years I was in a church that gave 50% of its receipts to missions and the people also gave to missions. The pastor was paid well and we had the nicest and largest church in town. When the church began the people had little to give but when people came who needed help they took up a collection after the service for those who needed help. It was shortly after the depression.

Every year were about 20 people leaving for the mission field.

Personally I like what Saddleback did. Their auditorium loks a lot like a gym that seats about 3500 and they have six services on a weekend.

If you compare that to what the majority of churches have done most are extravagant by comparison. Most have a sanctuary that is used once a week and nothing else. Why not a gym that can be used for activities and worship. Saddleback has not wasted their money on Sunday School rooms that are seldom used and must be maintained but rather their people meet in small groups during the week in homes.

 

All I saw was something fantastic and elaborate, but all 100% completely Christ centered, with the advancement of Gods kingdom as a primary goal.I think we should be giving praise for the advancement of Gods kingdom and for ones as obviuosly successful as this one.A church and ministry that is as huge as this one does an enormous amount to reach people for Jesus,change lives,offer Christ centered counceling for drug and alcohol abuse,sexual abuse and addiction,marriage counceling.Not to mention all the youth programs(that are actually fun)and some of the top speakers in the country.All the links I seen were to great people,programs,and ministies.If for any reason you saw something that was outside of Gods will or out of the pale of orthodoxy,shine a light on it expose it!But please dont SLANDER the church,wich is the body of Christ,even that one. Some important things to keep in mind and heart:Mark7:22 Romans2:1,3Roman15:20,1Corinthians1:10-13,2:15-16,12:12,12:18-28 2Corinthians9:6-15

 

The fact that I actually read this on a Baptist message board turns my stomach. Is it any wonder that Christians are despised by so many when thoughts like this are expressed on a Christian message board?

 

14. "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
15. "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
16. "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
17. "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
18. "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
19. "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
20. "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
21. "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
22. "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
23. "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
24. "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25. 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
26. "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
27. 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28. 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
29. "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30. "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 25:14-30, NASB, 1995)

 

While I disgree with the mega-church philosophy, I think is probably an unfair assesment of the situation in the mega-churches. I am grateful for those who are saved in these ministries.

 

What is "the mega-church philosophy"?

 

I am not going to fight on this issue, I was making attempt to be conciliatory.

 

No one is looking for a fight—I am only asking you to define the words you used because I am not familiar with what you mean by "the mega-church philosophy.” And if I am not familiar with what you mean—it is highly likely that the others are not either. Throwing words around without explaining the meaning of them does no one any good.

 

Alright, I retract my statement. Following is the edited version:

I think is probably an unfair assesment of the situation in the mega-churches. I am grateful for those who are saved in these ministries.

Happy?

 

I started a thread that is a "spin-off" from the discussion here, and just want to let you all know you can find it here:

I'm Shocked (or maybe not)

I decided not to sidetrack this discussion by asking the questions in this thread, and don't want the new thread to be a rehash of this discussion. Thanks.

 

Gee I wonder what they do with the money the resturaunt makes?
I've went over this churches site. They are functioning well as a new testement church. If I were going to jealous of anything it would be that my church could be doing all that Prestowood is.
Let me see if I can pick them apart:
They have a place where people can eat and meet which makes a profit. Well I find fault with that because first it employs people,next it contributes to the church finances, after that it is a place where Christians can meet eat, and enjoy christian fellowship in complete comfort(social comfort),saying grace at the meal is probably common and not at all out of place.

Next the fact that they have sports teams and other social events at the church where they can grow fellowship and just plain get to know each other on a personal level. After the church service these people should go thier seperate ways until the next church service.

They should'nt be a mother church or send missionaries,they should'nt have so many different groups meeting so thier special needs can be meant.This idea of a place for missionairies on furlogh is a bad idea too.Not only that but the giving away of food shelter anfd helping the poor should be stopped immediately.Not to mention the other things I brought out in my first post.
I'm not a mega church guy but it seems to be working for this church so God Bless them, I think I will add them to my prayer list. God is using this church and people are being blessed and saved through it's ministry.

To the small house churches and all other churches doing the work of God by discipling and spreading the Word of God, bless you also,I keep you in my prayers.To all of the other churches in between which are doing good works for God to Glorify His name I pray for the pastors ,deacons, workers and members daily.

We should not be fighting amongst ourselves.We should be loving and supporting one another.

 

Bill, I appreciate your post, with the spirit that you wish well all who you feel are doing the work of God. But your last two sentences also bring up part of what I have a problem with. Just because I/we disagree with someone does not mean that we are "fighting" them, or that we don't love them. To have disagreements does not mean there is no love and support, and to discuss points of disagreement does not we are fighting (though it can degenerate into that). Even the best of marriages have disagreements. For my part, to disagree with some of Prestonwood's ministry philosophy does not mean I have any desire to see harm come to them, or that I intend to do anything to "fight" them. But whether it is Prestonwood, or your church, or my church, I will voice my opinion if someone asks (whether I agree or disagree). If we can't take criticism, we probably need it.

 

It is not crticism I have a problem with, it is the spirit in which the criticism is given.

 

Bill, I can understand that, and there may be some posts that you can point out in this thread that were in a bad spirit, but much of what was said can be simply summed up with "I don't agree with their philosophy of ministry". I suspect that Prestonwood justifies all of this based on believing these things are part of the ministry God has called them to. I do not doubt they are sincere in believing that. I have a different view of the the church in the New Testament, with a philosophy that views N.T./apostolic practice as normative, and therefore sincerely disagree. I am not "worried" about what they are doing, and go on about my business not "worrying" about it, and only mention what I think if asked, and even then keep my comments to a minimum when direct criticism of a specific ministry is involved. But we also have to be careful about being too "touchy". To take a positive stand for any doctrine or practice - "salvation by faith", "inspiration and inerrancy", "baptism by immersion", "local church missions", and on & on - ultimately means we think we are right and someone else is wrong, and they might get "offended". I heard a Church of Christ person say that he visited a Baptist church, and afterwards some of his Baptist friends kind of apologized for some of the statements the preacher had made during the sermon. The CoC person remarked that he was not offended, he expected to hear Baptist doctrine preached at a Baptist Church. I would submit that if one visits and reads a Baptist bulletin board, he/she should expect to hear Baptist doctrine (and practice) debated. But it should be, as you say, done in the right spirit. I don't see any reason that we can't stay in the right spirit while disagreeing (except, perhaps, that we are all sinners).

 

You know, when you look at the floor plan, all you see are places to do things that all of us do. We have corporate worship, children's activities, play games, and get together and eat. The difference is, the facilities are newer, and were built to actually fit the purpose of which they are used. In our old buildings, we are constantly trying to refit and share space to accomplish the same things, but these folks had the means and opportunity to design for the activities upfront. More power to them. As long as the "focus is on the person" and they say it is, and his/her relationship to Christ, then they are OK. God bless them.

 

Please speak for yourself. The Bible says,

Rom. 3:23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom. 3:23. Pantes gar hemarton kai husterountaites doxes tou Theou,

Hemarton is an active aorist verb in the indicative mood indicating that the action is wholly in past time.

The Bible also says,

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

The Bible also says,

3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

(And no, the second phrase in verse 4 is NOT not a conditional phrase, but consequential phrase).

9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

If every Baptist is a sinner, every Baptist is refusing to take God at His word, and I am not comfortable with that concept. Baptists who are sinners need to take God at His word and repent of their sin.

(All English language scriptures NASB, 1995)

 

Shame on us for critiquing other believers' methods of spreading the Gospel. Before doing this, we should look inwardly to what we are doing.

Of course, you can't look up on the website to see the thousands upon thousands of dollars that they do send to the cooperative program and other missions projects. If they did publish that, some here would say they were flaunting themselves. I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the "darned if you do and darned if you don't" mentality.

Use your energies evaluating yourself and your walk. Let Christ (the Judge) and God (the King) sort out the hearts, intent, and motives of these believers in attendance at Prestonwood. I applaud the good work that they do, even if I can't fully appreciate the methods they use.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

Well, I was upholding a high view of posting on the board, and I don't see any reason that we can't stay in the right spirit while disagreeing. That was my main point. But as for speaking for myself, I don't mind doing so - I am a sinner (person who commits sins) and do need to repent of my sins daily. If you are not, then you can speak for yourself.

I John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 7:18-25 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. or the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.

(NASB, in case that's what you prefer)

 

Recently I heard the conversation between two foreigners and what they mentioned is how the religionists in the south need to take the log out of their own eye first. They knew about the infighting among church goers because one of them went to a university in the south.