Elected or Chosen?

[webdog]

But you're saying you know for sure that at the time of the writing of the letter of collossians...the church was still ALL jews, which is why Paul uses the word "elect/Chosen" as a motivator for them to put off old ways, and put on new ways?

Actually Paul addressed subsets of people in his letters. Romans 9-11 is right in the middle of his letter, yet he was addressing only his Jewish brothers. The Jews would have known exactly what he meant by 'elect', it was used in the OT to refer to Christ. The gentiles would have not known this.

Also, I didn't say all Jews...I said primarily. That's a big difference.

 

[convicted1]

How can one be "chosen", but not "elected", and vice versa? I think these are mutually inclusive terms.

TBS, we gentiles were chosen/elected corporately when the Jews rejected their Messiah....or that's how I see it...

 

[12strings]

Actually Paul addressed subsets of people in his letters. Romans 9-11 is right in the middle of his letter, yet he was addressing only his Jewish brothers. The Jews would have known exactly what he meant by 'elect', it was used in the OT to refer to Christ. The gentiles would have not known this.

Also, I didn't say all Jews...I said primarily. That's a big difference.

So Paul, in Col. 3:1-11, is addressing a mixed audience, though probably majority jewish Christians? AND, after telling all of them to put off old deeds, BECAUSE...(v.11) "There is neither greek nor jew." ...He then TURNS to address ONLY JEWS as the "chosen/Elect" people so that they will PUT ON these positive attributes...?

I don't see how that makes sense...Why would paul tell everyone to put of bad deeds, but only tell JEWS to put ON good deeds?

And again...how are Elect & Chosen different at all?

 

[webdog]

So Paul, in Col. 3:1-11, is addressing a mixed audience, though probably majority jewish Christians? AND, after telling all of them to put off old deeds, BECAUSE...(v.11) "There is neither greek nor jew." ...He then TURNS to address ONLY JEWS as the "chosen/Elect" people so that they will PUT ON these positive attributes...?

No, you misunderstood what I was saying. The Romans example was merely to show Paul did employ the method of addressing certain people.

And again...how are Elect & Chosen different at all?

Wouldn't that depend on the context of it being used?

 

[Van]

The premise is that "elect" refers only to Jews, but "chosen" only refers to Gentiles. This is obviously false.

"eklektos" appears 23 times in the KJV, and 16 times it is translated elect and 7 times chosen. Therefore there is no basis for saying the words refer to different groups. Rather the same Greek word is applied to both groups in the original language.

Now we can draw some distinctions. The Jews were God's chosen people. Thus a corporate election. In a corporate election a group with one or more characteristics is chosen, i.e. a believing descendent of Abraham. Note the individual (s) chosen do not need to exist at the time of the corporate election. Anyone subsequently deemed by God to have the characteristics would be placed into the group.

Now here is where the premise comes crashing down. In Galatians 3, we see that Gentiles who believe in Jesus and are placed spiritually in Christ, become part of Abraham's descendents, thus "elect."

 

[MB]

So Paul, in Col. 3:1-11, is addressing a mixed audience, though probably majority jewish Christians? AND, after telling all of them to put off old deeds, BECAUSE...(v.11) "There is neither greek nor jew." ...He then TURNS to address ONLY JEWS as the "chosen/Elect" people so that they will PUT ON these positive attributes...?

I don't see how that makes sense...Why would paul tell everyone to put of bad deeds, but only tell JEWS to put ON good deeds?

And again...how are Elect & Chosen different at all?

Here you are complaining about what you think is my contradiction. I see no contradiction. What I see is instructions to do as the elect does. Which separates Gentiles from the elect. This is why Paul said "put on", it means to do as the elect do. It means the same as to put on the righteousness of christ. To put it on we do as Christ did. It means to be Christ like. Of course you're not even interested because you don't understand what is meant by those two little words because, they conflict with your precious Calvinism.
MB

 

[MB]

The premise is that "elect" refers only to Jews, but "chosen" only refers to Gentiles. This is obviously false.

"eklektos" appears 23 times in the KJV, and 16 times it is translated elect and 7 times chosen. Therefore there is no basis for saying the words refer to different groups. Rather the same Greek word is applied to both groups in the original language.

Now we can draw some distinctions. The Jews were God's chosen people. Thus a corporate election. In a corporate election a group with one or more characteristics is chosen, i.e. a believing descendent of Abraham. Note the individual (s) chosen do not need to exist at the time of the corporate election. Anyone subsequently deemed by God to have the characteristics would be placed into the group.

Now here is where the premise comes crashing down. In Galatians 3, we see that Gentiles who believe in Jesus and are placed spiritually in Christ, become part of Abraham's descendents, thus "elect."

I'm sorry but Abraham was not elect. He lived before election took place between Jacob and Esau. Maybe you should have another cup of coffee.
MB

 

[MB]

No, you misunderstood what I was saying. The Romans example was merely to show Paul did employ the method of addressing certain people.

Wouldn't that depend on the context of it being used?

You're right it does depend on context. Something Calvinist are known for jumping over.
MB

 

[MB]

How can one be "chosen", but not "elected", and vice versa? I think these are mutually inclusive terms.

TBS, we gentiles were chosen/elected corporately when the Jews rejected their Messiah....or that's how I see it...

It's simple. An election has more than just one candidate. The election of the Jews was a choice made between Jacob and Esau. Being chosen is different in that we are chosen for our faith with out other candidates.
MB

 

[MB]

LOL....surely you jest.... rather its a plan of exit's intended to correct deficiencies in the present operating organization. W/o Calvinists, the Synergist's can then argue with themselves. Hows that? :laugh: :godisgood:

For your information; I rather enjoy the opportunity to convert you from your misery in Calvinism. I have no wish to drive anyone away from Baptist board. In fact if you leave because of me. It will only show that you don't have the fortitude to with stand the truth I'm showing you.
MB

 

[12strings]

Here you are complaining about what you think is my contradiction. I see no contradiction. What I see is instructions to do as the elect does. Which separates Gentiles from the elect. This is why Paul said "put on", it means to do as the elect do. It means the same as to put on the righteousness of christ. To put it on we do as Christ did. It means to be Christ like. Of course you're not even interested because you don't understand what is meant by those two little words because, they conflict with your precious Calvinism.
MB

1. So you're saying Paul isn't even talking to "ELECT" at all in Col. 3:12...He's only saying "Do what the Elect do?" I've never ever heard that before. It doesn't fit the way Paul uses the words Elect & Chosen...he uses them as motivators and encourages. Every commentary, calvie or not, that I've read says paul is using these people's chosenness as a motivator to put on right behaviors.

2. If the "Two little words" you are refering to are "ELECT" & "CHOSEN", The reason I started this thread was to see if anyone could tell me the difference...I haven't seen it yet...So I ask again...What's the difference? If I was "not even interested" why would I start the thread?

3. Even Webdog says the meaning would depend on context...not on one word having a different meaning than the other. Even VAN and I agree on this one...and I can tell you that is a rare occurrence! I suspect even the Majority of non-calvinists will agree also that Elect & Chosen mean the same thing.

 

[Monster]

LOL....surely you jest.... rather its a plan of exit's intended to correct deficiencies in the present operating organization. W/o Calvinists, the Synergist's can then argue with themselves. Hows that? :laugh: :godisgood:

Yeah, you caught me out.

I love these debates and disagreements as long as they stay civil. There's no real solution or conclusion to be had, humanly speaking, history demonstrates that, at least in my mind.

So, I leave the conclusions up to God. He's bigger, that's all the satisfaction I need and require and the root justification/rationalization for my faith. Why would we place faith in a deity that is so easily defined as to fit into a few points of human, "theological" contention?

I'm all for theology and it's many offshoots, but God is bigger, thus my/your/our understanding reaches limits so quickly.

I'm 47, and every time I read a book like, James or Romans, Hebrews, etc... I learn something new, find a new perspective, come to an understanding that wasn't revealed to my finite mind/heart/soul before. That's awe inspiring. I'm a part time writer and love words and phrases and what-not. But, the idea of writing a short story (forgive the inadequate descriptive terms) that has unplumbed depths with each new read through, that's just awesome and inconceivable...God is bigger, praise be to God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

For your information; I rather enjoy the opportunity to convert you from your misery in Calvinism. I have no wish to drive anyone away from Baptist board. In fact if you leave because of me. It will only show that you don't have the fortitude to with stand the truth I'm showing you.
MB

Ahhhh, isnt that big of you. Now how do you convert someone away from Calvinism that isnt a Calvinist?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yeah, you caught me out.

I love these debates and disagreements as long as they stay civil. There's no real solution or conclusion to be had, humanly speaking, history demonstrates that, at least in my mind.

So, I leave the conclusions up to God. He's bigger, that's all the satisfaction I need and require and the root justification/rationalization for my faith. Why would we place faith in a deity that is so easily defined as to fit into a few points of human, "theological" contention?

I'm all for theology and it's many offshoots, but God is bigger, thus my/your/our understanding reaches limits so quickly.

I'm 47, and every time I read a book like, James or Romans, Hebrews, etc... I learn something new, find a new perspective, come to an understanding that wasn't revealed to my finite mind/heart/soul before. That's awe inspiring. I'm a part time writer and love words and phrases and what-not. But, the idea of writing a short story (forgive the inadequate descriptive terms) that has unplumbed depths with each new read through, that's just awesome and inconceivable...God is bigger, praise be to God.

My friend, I am happy that you so enjoy theology ....I do as well. I also enjoy the banter that goes on in here & I myself am not opposed to conflict. Without dissent & conflict there can be no understanding.

I am 56 YO so I think I have a handle on my salvation story. Nobody is gonna convert me, LOL.... thats bravado thats just silly & quite laughable.

But my group of Baptists do not believe they are the only ones going to Heaven?

In fact they allow for a larger number being in Heaven than most religious societies. Jesus is the firstborn among MANY brethren. There will be a people in Heaven out of every nation on earth (Rev. 5: 9-12). No one will be there because of what he believed, but many will be there in spite of it. One's doctrinal views or church affiliation has nothing to do with his destiny.

 

[MB]

1. So you're saying Paul isn't even talking to "ELECT" at all in Col. 3:12...

No that is not what I'm talking about. The Pharisee's and the Sadducees did the same thing. To put on as the elect means to be as the elect were intended to be. "RIGHTEOUS"

He's only saying "Do what the Elect do?" I've never ever heard that before. It doesn't fit the way Paul uses the words Elect & Chosen...he uses them as motivators and encourages. Every commentary, calvie or not, that I've read says paul is using these people's chosenness as a motivator to put on right behaviors.

2. If the "Two little words" you are refering to are "ELECT" & "CHOSEN", The reason I started this thread was to see if anyone could tell me the difference...I haven't seen it yet...So I ask again...What's the difference? If I was "not even interested" why would I start the thread?

I explain it to you before and you didn't understand it. The reason for that is your preconceived notions of being elect your self

3. Even Webdog says the meaning would depend on context...not on one word having a different meaning than the other. Even VAN and I agree on this one...and I can tell you that is a rare occurrence! I suspect even the Majority of non-calvinists will agree also that Elect & Chosen mean the same thing.

Do all Calvinist believe exactly the same way? I do not consider myself as elect. I have been chosen this is true but the word "elect" refers to Jews It has never referred to Gentiles not even once in scripture and you still haven't proved that it does.
Others have tried and failed you will too because not only this you cannot prove even you are elect according to scripture.
MB

 

[MB]

Ahhhh, isnt that big of you. Now how do you convert someone away from Calvinism that isnt a Calvinist?

Convince the Calvinist that they have mistaken the truth of scripture and made it into a lie. It's not impossible believe it or not. God can speak to there hearts.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Convince the Calvinist that they have mistaken the truth of scripture and made it into a lie.

You convince them...your the one with the "Conversion Agenda" not me. Frankly Mary Beth, I dont give a wit"

It's not impossible believe it or not. God can speak to there hearts.
MB

He already has, when He elected them

Romans 8:30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[MB]

You convince them...your the one with the "Conversion Agenda" not me. Frankly Mary Beth, I dont give a wit"



He already has, when He elected them

Romans 8:30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is no such thing as prefaith election of Gentiles. You can't find it in scripture.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There is no such thing as prefaith election of Gentiles. You can't find it in scripture.
MB

Ephesians chapter one plainly teaches that before the foundation of the world, God, according to His own sovereign pleasure, elected a people to eternal salvation and made all of the arrangements necessary for them to live with Him in glory.

 

[Greektim]

There is no such thing as prefaith election of Gentiles. You can't find it in scripture.
MB

I think this guy (MB) makes WAY too much out of the difference in the English word "elect" and "chosen". He fails to recognize that in the Greek, they are the same root and thus mean the same thing.