Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

[OldRegular]

Before my husband was saved, he "chose" to want what I had. He told me many times that he wished he had what I had. Now, he does.

Amy.G

Salvation: regeneration, effectual call, conversion,etc., is a supernatural act of God. God saves each person as an individual, not like robots as you Arminians like to say. Therefore, no two people necessarily have the same experience of conversion. I spent many hours on my knees before I believed that God had saved me. I know of many others who have gone through the same experience. I recall my Father telling me that he reached the point where he simply cried out in complete surrender: "Lord I have done all I can". That is what God desires; our complete surrender to Him. I believe that this was the experience of Paul on the road to Damascus.

Acts 9:6. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Why did your husband desire what you had? Could it possibly be that God had performed an act of Grace in his life whereby he regenerated your husband, giving him the gift of faith which eventually overcame his doubt? Can you absolutely deny the possibility of that?

Conversion is the result of a conscious act of the regenerate person responding to God in faith and repentance. There are some who believe that conversion immediately, or very shortly, follows regeneration. I believe that faith and doubt are the opposite sides of the same coin just as repentance and faith. It is certain that the gift of faith at regeneration will, in time, triumph over doubt.

After Jesus Christ returned from the Mount of Transfiguration we read of the following from the Gospel of Mark. Consider the remarks of the father in the account.

Mark 9:17-29
17. And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18. And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19. He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20. And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21. And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22. And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23. Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25. When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26. And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27. But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
28. And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
29. And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

 

[OldRegular]

You have lied about us on numerous occasions by stating we believe we are sovereign over God...and I have yet to see an apology from you.

When you answer the same question I asked Winman and Amy.G then perhaps I will have reason to apologize.

What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation?

 

[OldRegular]

I don't owe know one an apology, but the world deserves the whole truth, not just part of it. I don't remember saying anyone one's name or accusing any one of anything. The devil is the accuser of the brethren.

[/COLOR]

Don't be so hard on yourself.

 

[psalms109:31]

It's amazing

Originally Posted by Amy.G View Post
Before my husband was saved, he "chose" to want what I had. He told me many times that he wished he had what I had. Now, he does.

It is awesome that God would use us to reveal to the world His grace and mercy. It is awesome to know that Jesus will not lose one that He has been given. It is through the Holy Spirit in us that lead him to the truth.

 

[psalms109:31]

Don't be so hard on yourself.

We are to love one another it is Jesus who brought the sword

 

[webdog]

When you answer the same question I asked Winman and Amy.G then perhaps I will have reason to apologize.

What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation?

I didn't exchange the truth for a llie (Romans 1). I cannot answer for those who reject Him, because I cannot crawl into their brains.

 

[Winman]

You have yet to answer the personal question I asked you: What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation?

I have answered this many times. I have given the testimony of how I was saved several times.

Even before I was saved I believed in God. I could look around me and see the complexity of the universe. I knew that it could not have happened by random chance and accident as evolution teaches. I could see fantastic intelligence behind existence. I realized this very early. I knew love, hate, conscience and other human attributes cannot come about by atoms randomly arranging themselves.

I saw and heard the various religions. But when I read the Christian scriptures I saw truth. The other religions all try to argue that man is good and can obtain perfection through his own effort. I knew this was false, because as good as I might try to be, I could not even come close to being perfect. The Bible said this, and I knew from my personal experience that this was true.

So, the Bible just seemed true to me. And even though the Bible said some fantastic things like miracles, I still recognized the truth of the scriptures. It is like the scriptures say:

John 7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Maybe that doesn't make sense to you, but I understand perfectly what these men were saying, because when I heard the scriptures I had never heard any man speak like this. I knew they were the words of God himself.

And so, when I learned from the scriptures that I was a sinner and that the penalty for my sins was death I was very afraid for my soul. But when I heard that Jesus loved me and died for me on the cross, and that he would save me if I came to him in my heart, I came to him. And I'm telling you, I did not waste one moment doing so, I wanted to be saved right then and there.

And you don't see me arguing from men's arguments here. I believe God's word. I don't need the commentaries of men. Men are sinful, men are fallible. God always tells the truth, and I believe what God says.

But those who believe Calvinism teach exactly the opposite of what the scriptures say. You yourself say God gives a man faith. If so, that would be receiving faith through grace. But the scriptures say the exact opposite, they say we receive grace through faith.

People can get mad, but that is exactly what Calvinism teaches.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This verse is not hard to understand. It says we have access by faith into grace. And look at the direction that is shown. It doesn't say God imposes faith on us. It says by faith we move into God's grace. The direction shows man moving into God's grace.

Yes, God calls and offers his grace. But we must believe when he calls and enter into this grace. He demands a response from us. What does the word "call" mean? When my phone rings, I know somebody is calling me, they want me to pick up the phone and answer. So, to have the desired conversation, I must respond to the calling. I don't know why I have to explain this, a little child could easily understand this.

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Job understood what I am talking about.

What the scriptures show:

Faith------> Grace

What Calvinism and Doctrines of Grace teach

Grace------> Faith

I don't know why any Calvinist would be upset, I have represented your doctrine just as you yourselves have presented it to me, and I have demonstrated it is exactly the opposite of what the scriptures teach.

 

[OldRegular]

If God chooses an individual before they were born, before they had faith (belief) in Jesus, then logically they are being chosen apart from Christ.

Amy.G

You are denying the very Scripture I quoted. Shame on YOU!

Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he {GOD} hath chosen us in him {JESUS CHRIST} before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The above Scripture is very clear. God chose those HE would save in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. They had to be chosen in Jesus Christ since without HIS death no one would be saved.

They are apart from Christ because until they believe, they are unbelievers. This means God has chosen them for salvation while they were unbelievers! God does not grant salvation to unbelievers! You cannot be saved UNTIL you believe.

No one has denied that belief is essential to salvation. We have stated that "saving Faith" is the Gift of GOD and occurs with regeneration. However the very Scripture that we quote to establish this shows that we are not saved prior to an act of Grace by GOD the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-8
1.And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Notice in particular the latter part of Verse 3 [Emphasized]. The Apostle states that we were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.. That is we were unsaved!

Calvinism has God up in heaven pointing His finger at individuals saying "I elect Joe for salvation, and Bob, and Sally.....". But Joe, Bob and Sally don't have faith in Christ, which Jesus Himself said that you must have in order to be saved. Therefore, what you have is God choosing Joe, Bob and Sally apart from faith in Christ. This is completely unbiblical.

Really? Consider the following Scripture:

Romans 9:13-24
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[OldRegular]

I don't know why any Calvinist would be upset, I have represented your doctrine just as you yourselves have presented it to me, and I have demonstrated it is exactly the opposite of what the scriptures teach.

I am not upset! But you haven't the foggiest idea of what those of us who hold to the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation believe.

 

[OldRegular]

It is awesome that God would use us to reveal to the world His grace and mercy. It is awesome to know that Jesus will not lose one that He has been given. It is through the Holy Spirit in us that lead him to the truth.

Could you explain what you mean by the statement: It is awesome to know that Jesus will not lose one that He has been given.

 

[OldRegular]

I didn't exchange the truth for a llie (Romans 1). I cannot answer for those who reject Him, because I cannot crawl into their brains.

You can't spell lie either!:laugh::laugh:

I hope you are not questioning my salvation. That is forbidden on this forum!:wavey::wavey:

 

[psalms109:31]

comfort in Jesus

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

 

[OldRegular]

But those who believe Calvinism teach exactly the opposite of what the scriptures say. You yourself say God gives a man faith. If so, that would be receiving faith through grace. But the scriptures say the exact opposite, they say we receive grace through faith.

People can get mad, but that is exactly what Calvinism teaches.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This verse is not hard to understand. It says we have access by faith into grace. And look at the direction that is shown. It doesn't say God imposes faith on us. It says by faith we move into God's grace. The direction shows man moving into God's grace.

The verse is not hard to understand but you have taken it out of context. The Apostle Paul is talking to those who have already been saved.

Romans 5:1-5
1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

That is a frequent weakness of your posts.

 

[OldRegular]

I have answered this many times. I have given the testimony of how I was saved several times.

Winman

You have a very moving testimony. As I told you once before it is very similar to mine. However, that being said, you still have not answered the question: What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation?

 

[psalms109:31]

Grace

Grace come first through the cross, but without the word of faith that comes from Jesus we wouldn't even know of this grace

 

[OldRegular]

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

I am asking what the statement all that he has given me means?

 

[psalms109:31]

Zeph 3:12

I am asking what the statement all that he has given me means?

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

 

[Winman]

The verse is not hard to understand but you have taken it out of context. The Apostle Paul is talking to those who have already been saved.

Romans 5:1-5
1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

That is a frequent weakness of your posts.

Really? What does verse 1 say? Does it say we are justified by grace? No, it says faith. And then the next verse says we have access by faith into God's grace. It is as plain as day, but you refuse to accept what the scriptures are easily understood to say.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Do you not see that Heb 11:6 shows it is impossible to come to God unless you first believe? What? Do you believe a man can be saved without coming to God?

You just don't get it, and I wonder if you ever will. God calls, and he expects us to come to him. Action is required on our part. Oh I know, you will say this is making a man sovereign, which is absurd. If I refused to come when God called, then you might have an argument that I have made myself sovereign. But when I obey and come as God desires, I have made him sovereign. But you cannot grasp this.

How is coming to God making myself sovereign? I am obeying his command. And that is exactly what many scriptures say.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Calvinism teaches that a man is an absolute slave to sin and cannot obey God until God regenerates him with the Holy Spirit. But the scriptures show the exact opposite, they show that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him.

Once again, Calvinism teaches exactly the opposite of what the scriptures say. You just keep on clingling to your doctrine, and I will keep showing you it is in absolute opposition to scripture.

 

[Rippon]

What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation?

In post # 120 Winman said that he recognized the gravity of his sins more than others -- but he still can't quite say why that was the case. It sounds like he made himself to differ from those who will never be saved.

 

[Winman]

Winman

You have a very moving testimony. As I told you once before it is very similar to mine. However, that being said, you still have not answered the question: What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation?

Old Regular, if you do not think I understand what you are trying to do here, trust me, I can see you coming from ten miles away.

Let me ask you, what causes you to understand the scriptures in reverse?

When Ephesians 1:13 clearly says we first hear the word of God, then believe it, then receive the Holy Spirit, what causes you to understand this in the exact reverse order? For by your own words you have many times said God gives a man the Holy Spirit which gives a man faith and the desire to hear the word of God, and only then will a man listen to and believe the word of God.

So, why oh why, do you understand in exact opposition to what the scriptures say?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,