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Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

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AresMan

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Is this not what we Baptists call "the age of accountability"?

I do not believe God sends babies to hell. Yes, they sin, but they do not understand what they are doing. I believe they are covered by the blood of Christ because of God's mercy. We even see this in our own court systems.

I did not know this was a controversial subject among Baptists.
Amen. I agree with a form of the "age of accountability" to a degree. I just believe it is not based upon the young children being "innocent" or in any way to their merit, but upon God's grace and mercy. People of any age go to heaven because of God's goodness, not their own.
 

webdog

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Amen. I agree with a form of the "age of accountability" to a degree. I just believe it is not based upon the young children being "innocent" or in any way to their merit, but upon God's grace and mercy. People of any age go to heaven because of God's goodness, not their own.
You have just presented another dispensation of salvation.
I also believe in God's grace and mercy, however...justice demands guilty people are punished, particularly God's perfect justice. If they are guilty, and they are saved apart from the way God has required those who are guilty (by grace through faith), that is an extra-biblical dispensation of salvation and that contradicts Scripture.
 

webdog

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Innocent is a very scriptural word and concept. In fact, the legal concept of innocence came primarily from the scriptures.
I prefer the term not guilty. Even with our finite, flawed justice system we cannot plead innocent. Having a nature bent towards sin is hardly innocence, as given maturity there is a 110% chance of sin. Adam and Even were created innocent and then there was a huge gap until Christ was born innocent. Those are the only humans who can carry that moniker.
 

percho

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I think I'll just believe Jesus. Except a man be born again he shall not see the kingdom of God. I take this to mean if he is one day old or 100 years old.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Marvel not I say ye must be born again.

Also on the day of Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of the Christ Peter said David was both dead and buried and if compared to Acts 13 saw corruption.
So I guess his soul was still in hell and he saw corruption and if he went to his son as he said, that must be where is son is also.
 

webdog

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I think I'll just believe Jesus. Except a man be born again he shall not see the kingdom of God. I take this to mean if he is one day old or 100 years old.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Marvel not I say ye must be born again.

Also on the day of Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of the Christ Peter said David was both dead and buried and if compared to Acts 13 saw corruption.
So I guess his soul was still in hell and he saw corruption and if he went to his son as he said, that must be where is son is also.
That passage is simply stating a spiritually dead person needs to be born again. An infant is not spiritually dead (separated from God).
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
That passage is simply stating a spiritually dead person needs to be born again. An infant is not spiritually dead (separated from God).
What evidence do you have for that?
The very fact that we must be born "AGAIN" infers another birth other than a physical one.
 

Johnv

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The very fact that we must be born "AGAIN" infers another birth other than a physical one.
Good point. I can't find any scripture that supports the idea of a person "becoming" spiritually dead after being born, but there is plenty fo scripture that refers to humankind as being spiritually dead. Therefore, to conclude that humans are spiritually dead from the start is a reaonsble conclusion.
 

Winman

Active Member
I think I'll just believe Jesus. Except a man be born again he shall not see the kingdom of God. I take this to mean if he is one day old or 100 years old.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Marvel not I say ye must be born again.

Also on the day of Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of the Christ Peter said David was both dead and buried and if compared to Acts 13 saw corruption.
So I guess his soul was still in hell and he saw corruption and if he went to his son as he said, that must be where is son is also.

Yes, but David was in paradise. There were two sections in hell, one for the dead, and one for the living (spiritually speaking). Read the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
 

Johnv

New Member
There were two sections in hell, one for the dead, and one for the living (spiritually speaking). Read the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
The Lazarus parable is referring to Sheol, not Hell as we know it (Gehenna). In Sheol, there was a place of paradise, and a place of torment. Those conditions no longer apply to persons dying today. Today, it's either Heaven, or Hell (Gehenna).

Sorry, that was a little off topic, but I find the topic of Sheol interesting.
 

webdog

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What evidence do you have for that?
The very fact that we must be born "AGAIN" infers another birth other than a physical one.
I agree completely, and that does not disagree with what I said. The evidence is in the fact that the second birth is spiritual. A spiritually dead person needs this birth. An infant is not spiritually dead, as the creation of someone or something dead is an impossibility and an oxymoron. Death is the ending of life, so there must be life at some point that ends. Even if this oxymoron could occur, faith would be needed by the fetus or infant else they perish...or you would have to hold to another dispensation of salvation like Aresman above which cannot be supported scripturally.
 
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webdog

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Good point. I can't find any scripture that supports the idea of a person "becoming" spiritually dead after being born, but there is plenty fo scripture that refers to humankind as being spiritually dead. Therefore, to conclude that humans are spiritually dead from the start is a reaonsble conclusion.
For Scripture about one becoming spiritually dead after being born physically you only need to read the account of Adam. We die in like manner...by sinning. Scripture also explicitly states that we are dead due to our transgressions and sins...not Adam's (Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13)
 

Johnv

New Member
For Scripture about one becoming spiritually dead after being born physically you only need to read the account of Adam. We die in like manner...by sinning. Scripture also explicitly states that we are dead due to our transgressions and sins...not Adam's (Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13)
OTOH, Psalm 51:5 says “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; in sin, my mother conceived me”, being one of several scriptural examples of inhierited sin.

One of the problems with the debate is that it is often framed as sin being either inhierited, imputed, or committed (and scripture for each being supplied). I don't think it's one or the other. I think it's all of the above. I believe all people are born with original sin (sin that is inherited, innate, inborn, inbred), but also bear imputed sin (sin that is put to our account by virtue of our position in Adam). In addition to those, we all are imparted with personal sin (sin that is willful disobedience to the will of God). There's no reason to think having one must negate the other. If there's scriptural support for all three, then we must consider the possibility that all three exists, and are not mutually exclusive in the heart of man.
 

percho

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That passage is simply stating a spiritually dead person needs to be born again. An infant is not spiritually dead (separated from God).

Where in this passage does it say anything about a spiritually dead person?

It says except a man. Doesn.t say except a spiritually dead man.

Is an infant born of the flesh?
 

Winman

Active Member
The act of rebelling against God was sin. This sin of Adam brought a curse upon man, the woman, and all the land. Man could have lived forever. Now sin had entered into the world and all things would head toward a state of degeneration and eventually death. Everything would be in a state of constant decay. This is the curse. Along with that is that man himself would grow old and die in his sinful flesh. That physical change was a part of the curse. He also inherited a sin nature as part of the curse. This nature that he now has would give him automatically the propensity to sin. I didn't have to teach my children how to lie. They knew it automatically, right from the womb. But I did have to teach them how to tell the truth, right from day one. This is because of their inherited sin nature.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Romans 8:22-23 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--The entire creation of God is in a state of degeneration, infected with the curse of sin. We, as well as God's creation, are waiting for the coming of Christ when we will receive our incorruptible bodies, and after that the earth will be refreshed.

I agree with everything you say here. But what I am trying to show is that man had the ability to sin from the beginning. So perhaps I should quit talking about sin, and talk about ability.

I agree 100% that Adam and Eve were sinless. They were pure. They were very good. And I think that I agree that when they sinned their moral natures began to corrupt, just as their bodies started to grow old. If so, then yes, I see a fall in the garden.

But they were not infallible before the fall, and I think I can demonstrate that.

First, look at the command God gave Adam.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Now, very interesting, Eve seems not to be present, because the next verse says:

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

So, it seems God only gave this command to Adam, Eve was not yet created.

Now, look what Eve said to the serpent.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


Do you see a difference between what God said and what Eve said? Eve added to God's word. God never said they could not touch the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but Eve did. She added to God's word.

Now, this was not a sin, because there was no law against it. But Eve absolutely made an error. She was not infallible or incapable of doing wrong.

I am not trying to stir up controversy. I was brought up believing Adam and Eve were absolutely perfect. But when I read this, it puzzled me. Why wasn't this a sin? Eve misrepresented God's command. Actually, she told a lie.

Did she lie? I would like to see what others think.
 

percho

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Yes, but David was in paradise. There were two sections in hell, one for the dead, and one for the living (spiritually speaking). Read the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

If he was in paradise he was dead in paradise. Peter said David was dead on that very day.

Just to be accurate Peter said or implyed that David's soul is still in hades, didn't say anything about paradise. In Luke one opens his eyes in hades much like Tabitha opened hers in Acts 9, and the other was in Abraham's bosom. Where did Peter say David was?
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I agree completely, and that does not disagree with what I said. The evidence is in the fact that the second birth is spiritual. A spiritually dead person needs this birth. An infant is not spiritually dead, as the creation of someone or something dead is an impossibility and an oxymoron. Death is the ending of life, so there must be life at some point that ends. Even if this oxymoron could occur, faith would be needed by the fetus or infant else they perish...or you would have to hold to another dispensation of salvation like Aresman above which cannot be supported scripturally.
Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 demonstrate the sinfulness of an infant as soon as they be born. They are born with a sin nature. The Bible indicates that they are born not into God's family but into the family of Satan. Thus Jesus could say to the Pharisees:
"You are of your father, the devil."
Every unsaved person is of their father, devil, and thus needs to be born into the family of God. They are born into the wrong family. Therefore there is the necessity of a new birth; a requirement to be born again.

Why did Jesus need to be born of a virgin?
He needed to be born of a virgin so that he would be born without sin. For sin is passed down through the seed of a man. It is inherited. It is inherited through Adam. By Adam's sin death has passed upon all men, for all have sinned. We are all sinners because of Adam. We have inherited the sin nature of Adam. Jesus did not because he was born of a virgin. Thus he was sinless. He had no sin nature to combat.
 

Winman

Active Member
If he was in paradise he was dead in paradise. Peter said David was dead on that very day.

You fail to differentiate between when the scriptures are speaking of the physical and spiritual. David was physically dead, he was spiritually alive.

Look what Jesus said to the Pharisees.

Matt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

When Jesus said this, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had been dead nearly two thousand years. And you can bet their physical bodies had long decayed away. But Jesus says they are living. He is speaking of the spiritual.

And if you bothered to read Luke 16, both Lazarus and the rich men were physically dead, but both could see, hear, speak, and other functions.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


Before Christ's resurrection, all men went down into the earth, that is hell. But hell had two compartments, one for the spiritually dead, and another for the spiritually alive. Do you notice that this is where Abraham was?

One section was terrible and the rich man was tormented in flames. The other section was paradise. If you read in Rev 22, it says the tree of life is in paradise, and a river of pure water. Well, I believe this is what the rich man saw, and he asked if Lazarus would dip his finger in water and give him but a drop to drink.

You will also notice in the description of paradise in Rev. 22 that it sounds almost exactly like the garden of Eden described in Gen. 2.
 

OldRegular

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Is this not what we Baptists call "the age of accountability"?

I do not believe God sends babies to hell. Yes, they sin, but they do not understand what they are doing. I believe they are covered by the blood of Christ because of God's mercy. We even see this in our own court systems.

I did not know this was a controversial subject among Baptists.

I believe that because of the rebellion of Adam and Eve all are born with a sin nature and, therefore, in time will commit sin. The question becomes : What constitutes sin. Looking at the action of our first parents that brought about the "fall" an obvious answer, and perhaps the simplest, is rebellion against God.

Now some on this Forum have claimed that infants sin from the moment they are born. I reject that. Some have given as an example an infant crying when it is hungry, saying it indicates a selfish nature. I believe that is simply stupid. Would these same men who come home from work and say to their wives: " Honey is supper [or dinner for Yankees] ready, I am hungry." concede that they have sinned against God. I doubt it!

I have posted before the remarks of Albert Mohler regarding the destiny of those who die in infancy. I will post those remarks again since I believe that he is far more knowledgeable on this problem than anything I have read on this Forum.
 

OldRegular

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Comment on News and Issues by R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

The Salvation of the 'Little Ones': Do Infants who Die Go to Heaven?
by R. Albert Mohler, Jr. and Daniel L. Akin
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

The death of an infant or young child is profoundly heartbreaking – perhaps the greatest grief a parent is called to bear. For Christian parents, there is the sure knowledge that our sovereign and merciful God is in control, but there is also a pressing question: Is our baby in heaven?

This is a natural and unavoidable question, calling for our most careful and faithful biblical study and theological reflection. The unspeakable anguish of a parent’s heart demands our honest and humble searching of the Scriptures.

Some are quick to answer this question out of sentimentality. Of course infants go to heaven, they argue, for how could God refuse a precious little one? The Universalist has a quick answer, for he believes that everyone will go to heaven. Some persons may simply suggest that elect infants go to heaven, while the non-elect do not, and must suffer endless punishment. Each of these easy answers is unsatisfactory.

Mere sentimentalism ignores the Bible’s teaching which bears on the issue. We have no right to establish doctrine on the basis of what we hope may be true. We must draw our answers from what the Bible reveals to be true.

Universalism is an unbiblical heresy. The Bible clearly teaches that we are born in sin and that God will not tolerate sinners. God has made one absolute and definitive provision for our salvation through the substitutionary atonement accomplished by Jesus Christ our Lord. Salvation comes to those who believe on. His name and confess him as Savior. The Bible teaches a dual destiny for the human race. The redeemed – those who are in Christ – will be raised to eternal life with the Father in Heaven. Those who have not believed in Christ and confessed Him as Lord will suffer eternal punishment in the fires of Hell. Universalism is a dangerous and unbiblical teaching. It offers a false promise and denies the Gospel.

The Bible reveals that we are born marked by original sin, and thus we cannot claim that infants are born in a state of innocence. Any biblical answer to the question of infant salvation must start from the understanding that infants are born with a sin nature.

The shifting of the focus to election actually avoids answering the question. We must do better, and look more closely at the issues at stake.

Throughout the centuries, the church has offered several different answers to this question. In the early church, Ambrose believed that baptized infants went to heaven, while unbaptized infants did not, though they received immunity from the pains of hell. His first error was believing in infant baptism, and thus in baptismal regeneration. Baptism does not save, and it is reserved for believers – not for infants. His second error was his indulgence in speculation. Scripture does not teach such a half-way position which denies infants admission to heaven, but saves them from the peril of hell. Augustine, the great theologian of the fourth century, basically agreed with Ambrose, and shared his understanding of infant baptism.

Others have taught that infants will have an opportunity to come to Christ after death. This position was held by Gregory of Nyssa, and is growing among many contemporary theologians, who claim that all, regardless of age, will have a post-mortem opportunity to confess Christ as Savior. The problem with this position is that Scripture teaches no such post-mortem opportunity. It is a figment of a theologian’s imagination, and must be rejected.

Those who divide infants into the elect and non-elect seek to affirm the clear and undeniable doctrine of divine election. The Bible teaches that God elects persons to salvation from eternity, and that our salvation is all of grace. At first glance, this position appears impregnable in relation to the issue of infant salvation – a simple statement of the obvious. A second glance, however, reveals a significant evasion. What if all who die in infancy are among the elect? Do we have a biblical basis for believing that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect?

We believe that Scripture does indeed teach that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect. This must not be based only in our hope that it is true, but in a careful reading of the Bible. We start with the biblical affirmations we have noted already. First, the Bible reveals that we are "brought forth in iniquity,"(1) and thus bear the stain of original sin from the moment of our conception. Thus, we face squarely the sin problem. Second, we acknowledge that God is absolutely sovereign in salvation. We do not deserve salvation, and can do nothing to earn our salvation, and thus it is all of grace. Further we understand that our salvation is established by God’s election of sinners to salvation through Christ. Third, we affirm that Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ is the sole and sufficient Savior, and that salvation comes only on the basis of His blood atonement. Fourth, we affirm that the Bible teaches a dual eternal destiny – the redeemed to Heaven, the unredeemed to Hell.

What, then is our basis for claiming that all those who die in infancy are among the elect? First, the Bible teaches that we are to be judged on the basis of our deeds committed "in the body."(2) That is, we will face the judgment seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes. Each will answer "according to what he has done,"(3) and not for the sin of Adam. The imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt explains our inability to respond to God without regeneration, but the Bible does not teach that we will answer for Adam’s sin. We will answer for our own. But what about infants? Have those who die in infancy committed such sins in the body? We believe not.

Continued next post.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Continued from previous post.

Comment on News and Issues by R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

The Salvation of the 'Little Ones': Do Infants who Die Go to Heaven?
by R. Albert Mohler, Jr. and Daniel L. Akin
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

One biblical text is particularly helpful at this point. After the children of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness, God sentenced that generation to die in the wilderness after forty years of wandering. "Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers."(4) But this was not all. God specifically exempted young children and infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so: "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good and evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it."(5)The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who "have no knowledge of good or evil" because of their age. These "little ones" would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.

We believe that this passage bears directly on the issue of infant salvation, and that the accomplished work of Christ has removed the stain of original sin from those who die in infancy. Knowing neither good nor evil, these young children are incapable of committing sins in the body – are not yet moral agents – and die secure in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John Newton, the great minister who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace was certain of this truth. He wrote to close friends who had lost a young child:"I hope you are both well reconciled to the death of your child. I cannot be sorry for the death of infants. How many storms do they escape! Nor can I doubt, in my private judgment, that they are included in the election of grace."(6) The great Princeton theologians Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield held the same position.

One of the most eloquent and powerful expressions of this understanding of infant salvation came from the heart of Charles Spurgeon. Preaching to his own congregation, Spurgeon consoled grieving parents: "Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days."(7)Spurgeon turned this conviction into an evangelistic call. "Many of you are parents who have children in heaven. Is it not a desirable thing that you should go there, too? He continued: "Mother, unconverted mother, from the battlements of heaven your child beckons you to Paradise. Father, ungodly, impenitent father, the little eyes that once looked joyously on you, look down upon you now, and the lips which scarcely learned to call you father, ere they were sealed by the silence of death, may be heard as with a still small voice, saying to you this morning, ‘Father, must we be forever divided by the great gulf which no man can pass?’ Doth not nature itself put a sort of longing in your soul that you may be bound in the bundle of life with your own children?"

Jesus instructed his disciples that they should "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these."(8) We believe that our Lord graciously and freely received all those who die in infancy – not on the basis of their innocence or worthiness – but by his grace, made theirs through the atonement He purchased on the cross.

When we look into the grave of one of these little ones, we do not place our hope and trust in the false promises of an unbiblical theology, in the instability of sentimentalism, in the cold analysis of human logic, nor in the cowardly refuge of ambiguity.

We place our faith in Christ, and trust Him to be faithful to his Word. We claim the promises of the Scriptures and the assurance of the grace of our Lord. We know that heaven will be filled with those who never grew to maturity on earth, but in heaven will greet us completed in Christ. Let us resolve by grace to meet them there.

Endnotes:
Psalm 51:5. All biblical citations are from the New American Standard Bible .
2 Corinthians 5:10
Ibid.
Deuteronomy 1:35
Deuteronomy 1:39
John Newton, "Letter IX," The Works of John Newton (London, 1820), p. 182.
Charles H. Spurgeon, "Infant Salvation" A sermon preached September 29, 1861. Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit (London, 1861), p. 505.
Mark 10:14

R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is President and Professor of Christian Theology.
Daniel L. Akin is Vice President for Academic Administration, Dean of the School of Theology, and Associate Professor of Christian Theology.

© R. Albert Mohler, Jr. - All Rights Reserved

Fidelitas may be reproduced in whole or in part, but must include the attribution statement printed above. For further information, contact the Office of the President, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 2825 Lexington Road, Louisville, KY 40280. Phone 502.897.4121, Fax 502.899.1770. Or, contact by e-mail at presoffice@sbts.edu
 
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