Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

[webdog]

Webdog, I want to make sure I am understanding you.



So, are you saying that if we are born spiritually dead, then we could not spiritually die?

If so, that actually makes a lot of sense.

That is what I am saying. If we are created "dead" (an impossibility) we are dead. The means of life is faith in Christ, and while some will state the silly notion an infant can have faith, others will state God saves them by grace...but in a different manner than an adult...which is heretical in my opinion. If this is true, then God can save any human apart from faith in Christ.

The curse of the fall was physical death and our natures being tainted making us enemies of God by nature.

I replied while you were editing. I do believe that a sinner is one who sins...as that is the very definition of the term, just like death is the ENDING of life.

 

[Winman]

Webdog. I am in agreement with you, although I am still confused on other points.

If makes perfect sense that we must be born spiritually alive, else we could not spiritually die as a result of sinning. The dead cannot die.

But how are babies and infants saved? I want to know how you understand this, this has always been perplexing to me.

 

[webdog]

Webdog. I am in agreement with you, although I am still confused on other points.

If makes perfect sense that we must be born spiritually alive, else we could not spiritually die as a result of sinning. The dead cannot die.

But how are babies and infants saved? I want to know how you understand this, this has always been perplexing to me.

First, who needs saving? God formed them in the womb! Those who are hopeless and dead! Do babies fall into this category? I believe they become spiritually separated from God (needing saving) when they consciously sin, as Christ's atonement covered all sin even the sin a child commits they are unaware of. Look at the story of Abraham and Abimelech (Gen. 20). Abimelech took Abraham's wife (which was technically a sin), but God stated he did so with a clear conscious and He kept Abimelech from sinning against Him. Infants fall into this same camp, and Christ atoned for their sins as well. There is no sin a child can commit while in the womb, btw, so all aborted children are either damned as being spiritually dead, or go to be with Christ as they are not separated from God. I believe in the latter.

 

[Winman]

Interesting, I am going to have to think on this awhile.

You know, Abimelech would qualify as someone who is innocent. He took Abraham's wife, but he was unaware that she was already married.

I believe they become spiritually separated from God (needing saving) when they consciously sin, as Christ's atonement covered all sin even the sin a child commits they are unaware of.

OK, let me make sure I understand you here. Children only become sinners (seperated from God) when they consciously sin. Correct? So you agree with me that they must comprehend right from wrong?

But you are also saying Christ's atonement covered the sins they commit before they have the ability to be aware of right and wrong. Correct?

Now, I had thought this same thing. But what I could not reconcile with this is that these children did not place their faith in Christ (they do not have the capacity to). It's not their fault, they are not old enough to understand.

How do you answer that?

And please go into more detail on this statement you made, I am not quite understanding you:

The curse of the fall was physical death and our natures being tainted making us enemies of God by nature.

I don't understand what you are saying here, could you go into more detail please?

Thanks.

 

[webdog]

OK, let me make sure I understand you here. Children only become sinners (seperated from God) when they consciously sin. Correct? So you agree with me that they must comprehend right from wrong?

To be held accountable of guilt...yes.

But you are also saying Christ's atonement covered the sins they commit before they have the ability to be aware of right and wrong. Correct?

Yes...if you look under the OT law, there was an atonement made on behalf of unintentional sin (Leviticus 4:2, 13, 22, 27; 5:15)

Now, I had thought this same thing. But what I could not reconcile with this is that these children did not place their faith in Christ (they do not have the capacity to). It's not their fault, they are not old enough to understand.

How do you answer that?

I think the problem you had was that of guilt. Like in the case of Abimelech, when it was shown to him that Sarah was Abraham's wife, he realized what he did was sin...yet interestingly God stated earlier he was not guilty. This is just one example of a sin being committed and not being held accountable of guilt...like infants, fetuses, the MRDD, etc.

And please go into more detail on this statement you made, I am not quite understanding you:

Quote:
The curse of the fall was physical death and our natures being tainted making us enemies of God by nature.
I don't understand what you are saying here, could you go into more detail please?

Sure. Since our bodies have the stain of sin interwoven throughout, our bodies cannot be in God's presence...they are at enmity with Him. This is why it has been appointed unto man once to die AND THEN the judgement. Sin is God's enemy, and having that in our very being has to be dealt with by God. Physical death is actually a relief for the believer...God used something detestable that was created by sin to in essence free us from it! As a believer, I HATE the nature in me that Paul describes in Romans 6 and 7 (side note...notice how Paul states in ch. 7 that he was once alive apart from the law, but when he became aware of it, he then died).

 

[Aaron]

To be held accountable of guilt...yes.
Yes...if you look under the OT law, there was an atonement made on behalf of unintentional sin (Leviticus 4:2, 13, 22, 27; 5:15)
I think the problem you had was that of guilt. Like in the case of Abimelech, when it was shown to him that Sarah was Abraham's wife, he realized what he did was sin...yet interestingly God stated earlier he was not guilty. This is just one example of a sin being committed and not being held accountable of guilt...like infants, fetuses, the MRDD, etc.
Sure. Since our bodies have the stain of sin interwoven throughout, our bodies cannot be in God's presence...they are at enmity with Him. This is why it has been appointed unto man once to die AND THEN the judgement. Sin is God's enemy, and having that in our very being has to be dealt with by God. Physical death is actually a relief for the believer...God used something detestable that was created by sin to in essence free us from it! As a believer, I HATE the nature in me that Paul describes in Romans 6 and 7 (side note...notice how Paul states in ch. 7 that he was once alive apart from the law, but when he became aware of it, he then died).

Holy mother of . . . !

. . . and Millennial Exclusion is heresy?

 

[DHK]

I find it odd that to hold to your view you must redefine very simple terms like "death" which is the ending of life, not the non existence of life.

Your definition of death is wrong, and not Biblical. It sounds more like what the SDA's believe.

 

[webdog]

Holy mother of . . . !

. . . and Millennial Exclusion is heresy?

Troll.....

 

[webdog]

Your definition of death is wrong, and not Biblical. It sounds more like what the SDA's believe.

I've also been told my view of God and time is Methodist. Oh well. I don't know what SDA's believe about death, but I do know what it is and how it is defined. How do you define it?

 

[pinoybaptist]

<snip>
You know, Abimelech would qualify as someone who is innocent. He took Abraham's wife, but he was unaware that she was already married.
</snip>

Abimelech is not innocent, didn't you yourself define innocent ?

He took Sarai with the full intent of laying with her but look what God did, both for him, and for Abraham's sake.
Here's the dialogue as recorded in the Bible.

And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent , and took Sarah.
But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man , for the woman which thou hast taken ; for she is a man's wife .
But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said , Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said , He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

God was the One who prevented Abimelech from sinning, had it not been for God, Sarai would be a goner, Abraham a cuckold, and Abimelech and his kingdom affected by the consequence of Abraham's faithlessness.
Genesis 20:2-6.

know your Bible.
Credit to whom credit is due, glory to whom glory is due, and that is : TO GOD ONLY.

 

[Winman]

Your definition of death is wrong, and not Biblical. It sounds more like what the SDA's believe.

Could you explain and give scripture. I hate it when folks just say something is wrong, and then do not say why or provide evidence why.

 

[Marcia]

Saul believed this woman had the ability to bring Samuel up.

1 Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

The woman believed she had this ability.

1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

The woman said she saw gods come up (ascending) out of the earth (not heaven). When Saul asked her to describe who she saw, she described Samuel and Saul recognized the description she gave.

1 Sam 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

And Samuel himself said he had been brought up.

1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

So, you see, it was not just the woman that said Samuel came up, Samuel himself said he came up. And notice that Samuel was upset at Saul for bringing him up. He did not come up willingly.

You say the woman did not have the ability to bring Samuel up? Then explain how he did come up.

The only line that has any validity for truth is Samuel's, and that does not mean up from the ground necessarily. The other lines are from Saul and the woman, who are not sources of truth. Saul was disobeying God and was killed for it. As I said, of course the woman said this; this was the common belief of the mediums.

And I think you need more than Samuel's one line for your case assuming he means coming up from the ground), but that's another topic, I guess (which we've had here before).

 

[Marcia]

I believe Paul held the same view as I did (I provided the Scripture a couple pages back supporting my view)...and I would rather side on the Bible's side than Baptists. Most Baptists think alcohol is sinful as well, and like sin, they are wrong on that interpretation.

It's not just a Baptist view. And alcohol is an entirely different matter from the issue of man's state vis-a-vis God.

OK...if a fetus or baby is separated from God...how does the Bible say they need to be saved?

The Bible doesn't.

What does dead mean? How can anything be created dead?

Spiritually dead, Webdog. And yes, babies are born spiritually dead; it's from Adam; it's the state of man since the Fall.

The whole "we sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin" might sound theological and correct, but it lacks any kind of wisdom whatsoever.

I think the whole Bible backs it up.

 

[webdog]

Abimelech is not innocent, didn't you yourself define innocent ?

He took Sarai with the full intent of laying with her but look what God did, both for him, and for Abraham's sake.
Here's the dialogue as recorded in the Bible.

And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent , and took Sarah.
But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man , for the woman which thou hast taken ; for she is a man's wife .
But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said , Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said , He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

God was the One who prevented Abimelech from sinning, had it not been for God, Sarai would be a goner, Abraham a cuckold, and Abimelech and his kingdom affected by the consequence of Abraham's faithlessness.
Genesis 20:2-6.

know your Bible.
Credit to whom credit is due, glory to whom glory is due, and that is : TO GOD ONLY.

You contradict yourself. In one breath you say Abimelech was not innocent...and then say God kept Abimelech from sinning against Him. Which is it?

 

[Marcia]

If makes perfect sense that we must be born spiritually alive, else we could not spiritually die as a result of sinning. The dead cannot die.

We don't spiritually die by sinning; we are already spiritually dead because Adam sinned, thereby passing on the sin nature. Being born with a sin nature is spiritual separation from God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

You contradict yourself. In one breath you say Abimelech was not innocent...and then say God kept Abimelech from sinning against Him. Which is it?

okay, let me clarify.
Abimelech is not innocent in that he is not guileless.
He had every intent of taking Sarai carnally, had God not intervened.

 

[webdog]

The Bible doesn't.

Huh? The Bible absolutely does state without a shadow of a doubt how spiritually dead people are saved! If you maintain they are spiritually dead, they MUST be saved in the manner God has set forth!

Spiritually dead, Webdog. And yes, babies are born spiritually dead; it's from Adam; it's the state of man since the Fall.

You didn't answer the question. What does dead mean?

I think the whole Bible backs it up.

...except for this one? Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

If you maintain we are guilty of Adam's sin, who's sin does God forgive the fetus of? He forgives the fetus of Adam's sin?!? I thought He already forgave Adam's sin upon Adam's faith? Are you maintaining some of his sin is still being created every day that is unforgiven?

 

[Marcia]

Where I might disagree is that I do not believe we are born sinners. You must know and understand the law and break it to become a sinner.

If that is true, why did the Israelites have to make sacrifices for sins they were unaware of?

 

[webdog]

We don't spiritually die by sinning; we are already spiritually dead because Adam sinned, thereby passing on the sin nature. Being born with a sin nature is spiritual separation from God.

Whose sin does God forgive us of when we come to faith in Christ?

 

[Marcia]

Huh? The Bible absolutely does state without a shadow of a doubt how spiritually dead people are saved! If you maintain they are spiritually dead, they MUST be saved in the manner God has set forth!
You didn't answer the question. What does dead mean?
...except for this one? Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

If you maintain we are guilty of Adam's sin, who's sin does God forgive the fetus of? He forgives the fetus of Adam's sin?!? I thought He already forgave Adam's sin upon Adam's faith? Are you maintaining some of his sin is still being created every day that is unforgiven?

1. You asked me specifically about children.
2. I think anyone who is saved is saved by God's grace.
3. I don't see how Col 2.13 supports your view
4. God forgives us of our sin nature, which is a natural state of rebellion against God, and our sins.