Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

[Marcia]

Whose sin does God forgive us of when we come to faith in Christ?

We are forgiven of our sins, and our sin nature, the natural rebellion agianst God that we are born with, is transformed through sanctification.

It's not Adam's sins that we are guilty of, but it's the sin nature that separates us from God at birth. The sins we commit come from that sin nature and our rebellion continues unless we are saved. There are 2 issues here: man's state at birth, and being forgiven. Just because we are only forgiven of our sins, it does not follow that therefore we are born in a state of spiritual health. Those sins we need forgiveness for come from the rebellious sin nature that separates us from God.

 

[webdog]

If that is true, why did the Israelites have to make sacrifices for sins they were unaware of?

Were the sacrifices made on behalf of their unintentional sin, or Adam's?
To answer your question, it was a foreshadowing of Christ's atonement on unintentional sin as well (infants, MRDD)

 

[webdog]

We are forgiven of our sins, and our sin nature, the natural rebellion agianst God that we are born with, is transformed through sanctification.

It's not Adam's sins that we are guilty of, but it's the sin nature that separates us from God at birth. The sins we commit come from that sin nature and our rebellion continues unless we are saved. There are 2 issues here: man's state at birth, and being forgiven. Just because we are only forgiven of our sins, it does not follow that therefore we are born in a state of spiritual health. Those sins we need forgiveness for come from the rebellious sin nature that separates us from God.

Having a sin nature does not make one guilty of sin. You have said we are guilty of Adam's sin. Does having a human nature to walk and talk mean a person can speak at birth and walk? Of course not. They are not "walkers and talkers" until they actually do so!

 

[Marcia]

Having a sin nature does not make one guilty of sin. You have said we are guilty of Adam's sin. Does having a human nature to walk and talk mean a person can speak at birth and walk? Of course not. They are not "walkers and talkers" until they actually do so!

Where did I say we are guilty of Adam's sin? I said the opposite! Look at post 301. Why should I even respond to you when you don't read what I wrote, Webdog?

I said we are born with a sin nature, and that is enough of an offense to God. How can anyone think that a natural rebellion toward God is not an offense to Him?

 

[webdog]

Where did I say we are guilty of Adam's sin? I said the opposite! Look at post 301. Why should I even respond to you when you don't read what I wrote, Webdog?

I said we are born with a sin nature, and that is enough of an offense to God. How can anyone think that a natural rebellion toward God is not an offense to Him?

Post 295 you said we are guilty due to Adam's sin in the form of the sin nature being passed on. That is guilt due to Adam's sin.

A propensity to sin is not an offense to God. Breaking God's Law is an offense to God. If what you say is true, since we still have a sin nature we offend Him still...even when we walk by the Spirit and are not sinning! Christ didn't atone for sin natures...He atoned for sin.

 

[percho]

Was Saul of Tarsus one of the elect? If so was it because he suddenly had this saving faith in Christ? He was going down the road to kill and or put in prison those of whom Christ had called when he was struck blind. Or was he chosen of Christ to be an Aspotle because of the faithfulness of Christ to some plan that he had. What is this plan? Is it to save some and send the others to hell? When did this plan start? Do you think it started as early as Gen.? Maybe earlier? Elected for what? Salvation? Eternal life? That world?
You know Jesus taught a lot about the kingdom of God. Do you think we are elected for the kingdom of God? I do know we are born into this world. Wonder how we are going to get into that world? The Thessalonians were worried about some that had died since Paul had taught them Jesus was the Messiah and being a king proberly with a kingdom. Maybe they were ignorant of how their dead loved ones were going to get into the kingdom of God.

Food for thought.

By the way is Acts 15:14 what God is doing today or has that ended?

 

[DHK]

Could you explain and give scripture. I hate it when folks just say something is wrong, and then do not say why or provide evidence why.

Death in the Bible is not simply the end of life.
Death always means separation, whether it be spiritual death, physical death, eternal death or even the second death. It is separation.
Even in physical death the Bible defines it this way:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--This is spiritual death: separation from God because of sin.

Death is always separation; not simply the end of life.

 

[Aaron]

Troll.....

In all seriousness, the ME'ers are closer to orthodoxy than this subterfuge you're belching. Your teaching betrays a fundamental misaprehension of the Gospel. Fundamental, not trivial.

It cannot be overlooked.

 

[Marcia]

Post 295 you said we are guilty due to Adam's sin in the form of the sin nature being passed on. That is guilt due to Adam's sin.

Let me try to clarify - it seems that I was clarifying in later posts but maybe not. M choice of words may not have been the best.

We are guilty in the sense of having a sin nature and that Adam's guilt is imputed to us. We are not actually guilty in the sense that we are responsible for Adam since we were not around and did not help him commit sin. But his sin is imputed to us, just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to us when we have faith in Him.

A propensity to sin is not an offense to God. Breaking God's Law is an offense to God. If what you say is true, since we still have a sin nature we offend Him still...even when we walk by the Spirit and are not sinning! Christ didn't atone for sin natures...He atoned for sin

A sin nature is more than just a propensity to sin - it's a rebellion toward God, which we are born with. The reason we don't offend God now is because the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to us if we have believed on him. I thought that was pretty basic.

Christ atoned for our sins but sanctification is the changing of the sin nature, forming us into the image of Christ.

 

[Marcia]

Were the sacrifices made on behalf of their unintentional sin, or Adam's?
To answer your question, it was a foreshadowing of Christ's atonement on unintentional sin as well (infants, MRDD)

The 1st question has nothing to do with the issue of Adam. I made the point that sacrifices had to be made even for sins that one was not aware of in answer to I think Winman's statement about we are only guilty of sins we know we commit.

 

[Marcia]

Having a sin nature does not make one guilty of sin. You have said we are guilty of Adam's sin. Does having a human nature to walk and talk mean a person can speak at birth and walk? Of course not. They are not "walkers and talkers" until they actually do so!

A sin nature means we are born separated from God and need redemption.

Your analogy of walking and talking is invalid. A sin nature exists whether you can see it or not, and you can see it sometimes even in babies who cry and get mad when not getting their way (I am not speaking of crying because of hunger or pain or cold, etc). You certainly see it in a child at 2!

 

[Winman]

Death in the Bible is not simply the end of life.
Death always means separation, whether it be spiritual death, physical death, eternal death or even the second death. It is separation.
Even in physical death the Bible defines it this way:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--This is spiritual death: separation from God because of sin.

Death is always separation; not simply the end of life.

Thank you. I wasn't trying to be harsh. I just hate it when a person says something is wrong or that they disagree and then do not say why. Believe it or not, I actually read people's answers and give them consideration.

And I agree with what you said, I also believe death whether physical or spiritual means seperation and have said so before.

I think what everybody is discussing here comes under the doctrine of Federal Headship. This is, Adam's sin as our father was imputed to our account. So therefore Christ's righteousness can be imputed to our account.

For if it is unfair to place Adam's sin on us, it is also equally unfair to place Christ's righteousness on us.

I don't know a whole lot about this doctrine, but it does make sense.

 

[percho]

Death in the Bible is not simply the end of life.
Death always means separation, whether it be spiritual death, physical death, eternal death or even the second death. It is separation.
Even in physical death the Bible defines it this way:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--This is spiritual death: separation from God because of sin.

Death is always separation; not simply the end of life.

I'm not sure what you think. Answer these three questions.

What is life?
Is death the opposite of life?
Is life the opposite of death?

 

[DHK]

I'm not sure what you think. Answer these three questions.

What is life?

LIFE
In the Bible, is either natural, Ge 3:17; spiritual, that of the renewed soul, Ro 8:6; or eternal, a holy and blissful immortality, Joh 3:36; Ro 6:23. Christ is the great Author of natural life, Col 1:16; and also of spiritual and eternal life; Joh 14:6; 6:47.
He has purchased these by laying down his own life; and gives them freely to his people, Joh 10:11,28. He is the spring of all their spiritual life on earth, Ga 2:20; will raise them up at the last day; and make them partakers for ever of his own life, Joh 11:25; 14:19. (American Tract Society Dictionary)

Is death the opposite of life?

No, death is separation. It is not the absence of life. There are different types of death or separation, just as there are different types of life as noted above.

Is life the opposite of death?

Already answered.
There will be "life" in Lake of fire. It will be eternal death--that is eternal separation from God. Death is separation. But as we usually think of life (the ability to use our senses), yes, in the lake of fire that will happen. But death is separation from God. And that will be eternal.
In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was in a state of eternal death. He was in full use of his faculties, and yet dead or separated from God.

 

[DHK]

For if it is unfair to place Adam's sin on us, it is also equally unfair to place Christ's righteousness on us.

I don't know a whole lot about this doctrine, but it does make sense.

There is nothing "unfair" with God. Even an infant is deserving only of the wrath of God. It is by God's grace do we believe that infant will be in heaven, for God is merciful. We have done nothing to merit God's grace or mercy. We are poor, wretched, sinners, deserving only of his wrath. And that is the reason that Christ came to die for us.

Christ didn't force his righteousness on any one. One must believe and accept that righteousness as a gift in order to obtain it. We are born in sin. We must be born again. We are born with a sin nature. We must be born anew to have a new nature. We are conformed to this world. We need to be conformed to Christ.

 

[percho]

There is nothing "unfair" with God. Even an infant is deserving only of the wrath of God. It is by God's grace do we believe that infant will be in heaven, for God is merciful. We have done nothing to merit God's grace or mercy. We are poor, wretched, sinners, deserving only of his wrath. And that is the reason that Christ came to die for us.

Christ didn't force his righteousness on any one. One must believe and accept that righteousness as a gift in order to obtain it. We are born in sin. We must be born again. We are born with a sin nature. We must be born anew to have a new nature. We are conformed to this world. We need to be conformed to Christ.

Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Do you think Paul thought of the above when he wrote the following?

but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.


I ask again, did Paul all of a sudden have a faith in Jesus that came from within himself or did Jesus thru election remove his blindness?

Fair or unfair has to do with what are they elected for. see post 306

Eternal life and eternal death sounds like an oxymoron to me. I do not think they both can apply to one person.

 

[psalms109:31]

Who God Elected

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew…

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war."

Romans 8:29… he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

There is not one who is meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord that will say look at what I done, but they would only praise God the Father through Jesus and what He has done.

 

[webdog]

In all seriousness, the ME'ers are closer to orthodoxy than this subterfuge you're belching. Your teaching betrays a fundamental misaprehension of the Gospel. Fundamental, not trivial.

It cannot be overlooked.

Like I said...troll...

You don't even bother to address what you think is so heretical. You are a troll, and it is evident on 99% of your threads. You are only interested in vitriol and trolling...go find another board.

 

[webdog]

Death in the Bible is not simply the end of life.
Death always means separation, whether it be spiritual death, physical death, eternal death or even the second death. It is separation.
Even in physical death the Bible defines it this way:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--This is spiritual death: separation from God because of sin.

Death is always separation; not simply the end of life.

Death is separation, but it starts with the ending of life. When our physical life ends, our soul is separated from our body. It is indeed the ending of life...so with that as a given, at what point does an individual have life (the opposite of separation) that ends?

 

[webdog]

There is nothing "unfair" with God. Even an infant is deserving only of the wrath of God. It is by God's grace do we believe that infant will be in heaven, for God is merciful.

...and here is the fatal flaw of augustinian original sin...another way to be saved apart from "by grace through faith"...just "by grace". Maybe the muslim or buddhist that dies will get to Heaven in the same way if it is only by grace apart from faith in Christ?