Election and Calvanism

No Wes that is all you can give!
You are so wrong!

johnp.

 

Yea that's brilliant Wes!
Really gave me a picture of the polling station and the voting booths. God was on the ticket.

His campaign slogan read "Vote for me or go to Hell!

Oh of course! Democracy is also among the gods isn't it?
What is it, one God one vote? After all He did say He was One.

There is no free will when coercion is present, look it up.
1 a : the act of coercing : use of physical or moral force to compel to act or assent <some form of coercion, overt or covert, which encroaches upon the natural freedom of individuals -- John Dewey> b : a power or force that coerces <the submissive way of one long accustomed to obey under coercion -- Charles Dickens>
2 : the application of sanctions or force by a government usually accompanied by the suppression of constitutional liberties in order to compel dissenters to conform <coercion acts>
3 : physical force tending to constrict or compress <the coercion of the ice around the ship's bows>

Vote for me or go to Hell.

Don't fit.

How's this?

No. Only a sovereign people can choose who governs them. He is Sovereign. We don't live in a Democracy we live under a Despotic Dictatorship which is Controlled absolutley, because He is Absolute.
He is a tyrant, 1 a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution;
Unrestrained by law because He is the law. What He says goes and woe betide any who dare Him.

No! That's a topsy-turvy world.

PS 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silent; you thought I was altogether like you.

johnp.

 

There is no free will when coercion is present.

You lose.

johnp.

 

Now did I say that? NO, I DID NOT! Stop your infernal twisting of what I said!

I'm not too sure you can prove your point using scripture out of Context.

It is UNWISE of YOU to misquote scriptures by taking them out of context as you do to "prove your point.

Rom. 8:28- says that those who are "predestined" are the ones who are justified. Not justified and then predestined.

What was God's purpose of "calling the twelve"? How many had been "Moulded to the pattern of his son"...the Apostles.

"Through our gospel he called you..." Sure sounds like "hearing the word and believing to me!

 

No Wes that is all you can give!
You are so wrong!

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Prove me wrong by shipping me a couple pounds YOUR LOVE by overnight express! When it arrives, I'll know that I have been wrong.

Can't do that? So who then is wrong?

 

So, which elect do you wish to apply

What if God set up the election and placed himself on the ballot among other gods. We the people are the voters. Who does the "electing"? Is it not "our choice" to determine who will "govern" us?

Consider this natural life the polling place for your eternal Governor. Choose you this day whom you will serve. Man, that's election! </font>[/QUOTE]I'll take #4. I like 8 and 10 too. I'm not sure why they weren't bold, though, like 1, 2 and 3. </font>[/QUOTE]I bolded 1,2,and 3, to draw attention to other meanings of election. It seems to me those options are just as valid as those relating to theology!

 

Can do that. Faster than light. Love can only be given.
It's yours from me with love.

Peace.

johnp.
you still lose!

 

"For a politician to be elected he must be electable."

Straw man argument. Changes the meaning of words.

Problem with human doctrine of election is that it is human nature to exclude instead of include. God has elected everyone except those who intentionally exclude themselves.

 

Can do that. Faster than light. Love can only be given.
It's yours from me with love.

Peace.

johnp.
you still lose! </font>[/QUOTE]I've received nothing from you? Have you sent it?

 

That's an interesting observation.

 

billwald.

At least we are back to God electing.

Oh no we're not! Back to man by the end of the sentence!

How do you mean that is a strawman? "For a politician to be elected he must be electable."
How is he elected if he is not electable? How does that change the meaning of elect?

johnp.

 

Yes you have. Maybe you have not recognised it.

johnp.

 

Yes you have. Maybe you have not recognised it.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]I certainly recognize love sir, but I have not received any of yours so that you have less and I have more.

 

I have no less if I give more. I have more if I give more.

johnp.

 

I have no less if I give more. I have more if I give more.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you God? Only God has limitless Love.

Love is not a transferable commodity. It cannot be given by one to another!

 

Love never fails. Never runs out.
But I never said that my love was limitless as you claim.
I said I have no less if I give more. Is that not so?

johnp.

 

Love never fails. Never runs out.
But I never said that my love was limitless as you claim.
I said I have no less if I give more. Is that not so?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]If you can lop off some of your love and ship it to me, you win the argument, if you cannot do that you lose the argument. So far, since I have not received a package from you, YOU LOSE!

 

Getting back to the Topic, Phillip said in the first post of this topic,

Phillip,
God knew before he created man that man would disobey him. All that God created he put under the dominion of man, meaning that man was superior in God's eyes to all the rest that God created. Man being created in the image of God, makes man superior to all else that is not in the image of God. Even so, God knew from before the foundation that man would be disobedient and in disobedience would sin. Thus God established the "cause and effect" that if you sin, you die! God also established a way to escape that harsh penalty, and that is through FAITH in God. That is saying, "if you sin, the penalty is death, but if you believe in me, I will spare your life. So, before the foundation of the world, God established the criteria by which HE would save man. Thus God established "election" by establishing the criteria by which HE elects, or HAS ELECTED!

You must understand that the criteria had to be something that all mankind is capable of meeting. God created man with the capability to have faith, but God did not give man the faith, because God has no faith to give to man! God provided man with all the reasons to have faith, but not the faith itself because God made man with the capability to have personal individual faith in whatever man chooses to have faith in. We are instructed to not trust money, yet many do! We are instructed to not trust what we build, but most of us do! We are instructed to trust in Jesus, but many do not! The freedom to choose what objects we have faith in is solely that of humanity, it is human freedom given to us in the creation.

So, God established the criteria that is within the ability of ALL mankind to meet. God records in "the Lamb's Book of Life" the names of all who, through their FAITH, meet the criteria. THAT IS ELECTION, meet the criteria and you are elected. Oh, I know I there are no specific biblical references that one can quote to establish this fact, but if one puts all the pieces of "the puzzle", or "mystery" as some refer to it, together, one sees the picture I have just described.

The concept is exactly the same thing that man has been using since Adam and Eve. We have an established, criteria, though discretionary, for virtually everything we do in life. From selecting "premium grade beef", or Choice fruit and vegetables to inspecting marbles to see which one out of many we want to call our own, we have an "Election Criteria". God established His Election Criteria for mankind to be FAITH IN GOD plus Nothing else. In order to be "an Elected of God", man must meet the established criteria. John 3:16-18 brings clarity to the issue because it iterates God's election criteria.

Before the foundation of the world, God established the criteria by which HE would save man from the fate of death for sin. It is now up to man to meet that criteria through personal, individual faith in God, especially in God the Son.

 

Wes.

There is no free will when coercion is present. Rebuttal required.

johnp.

 

Who is coercing whom?

Before the foundation of the world God established a criteria by which he judges man. That Criteria is FAITH ALONE, not faith-plus anything.

In establishing the LAW, God established FAITH as the criteria because no man could meet all the requirements of the Law. If any did, the one doing so would have reason to boast! Performance of the law requires works, "...not of works lest any man should boast"!

It is the criteria of personal FAITH in God that man must meet in order to be ELECTED OF GOD, and thus receive salvation BY GOD!

The free will of man comes into play because God gave man the reasons to have faith in Him but is not coercing man to actually do so. God established the standard that must be met for individual salvation, leaving it up to man to weight all the knowledge God gives to man and then for man to meet that standard. You do not have to meet that standard, you can go your own way and not establish a personal faith in God, or God the son, but you do so to your own peril (John 3:18b)

God ELECTS those who establish personal faith in God!