Election and Calvanism

Wes.

Vote for me or go to Hell is coercion. There is no free will when coercion is present.

Going to Hell is not a natural occurrence that results from not believing but a punishment for not believing.

How is it possible for someone to die in his sin? You said Jesus died for all sin. You said unbelief is not a sin so how can one die in his sin?

johnp.

 

How about, "Meet the criteria and live"? Is that better? That is what scriptures reveal man must do to have everlasting life. The choice is yours!

How is it possible for someone to die in his sin? You said Jesus died for all sin. You said unbelief is not a sin so how can one die in his sin?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]In context it is Jesus who is saying those words to the religious leaders in the temple who have "already rejected him" which is a sin in that they reject the Holy Spirit's revealing of truth. Atonement had not yet taken place! All that was necessary for those religious leaders to not die in their sins, is to have faith in God. If one does not have faith in God they remain "in their sins", but because of Atonement for sin, they don't die FOR their sin, only IN their sin.

Remember, the Criteria for human salvation is FAITH IN GOD! Man does the FAITHing, God does the SAVING! Those who don't faith, die IN the condition in which they lived, not FOR the condition.

 

Wes.

Repent and be saved is the criteria, a thing I have not disputed. Do you dispute, "Repent and believe or go to Hell."?

Even so, "Vote for me or go to Hell." Is still coercion. There is no free will when coercion is present. So what if salvation is down to man or God, it is still coercion isn't it?

johnp.

 

Repent and be saved is the criteria, a thing I have not disputed. Do you dispute, "Repent and believe or go to Hell."?

Even so, "Vote for me or go to Hell." Is still coercion. There is no free will when coercion is present. So what if salvation is down to man or God, it is still coercion isn't it?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Is there free will when other choices confront us?

 

Wes, I honestly can't remember. What is your operating definition for "free will?'

Is it "libertine" free will or "free agency/compatibalist" free will? It would be helpful to know what you mean when you use the term.

Thanks.

 

Wes.

Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

That 'all' there Wes, that is everybody that ever lived or will live.
That is a statement of fact is it not? Judgement from the law to those that hear it and do not do it. A judgement not based on unbelief, but on law. A judgement against all those who do not hear it and do not do it not based on unbelief because they did not know they did not believe.

It would be nice to hear your definition of free will even though it does not bear on those who do not hear.

johnp.

 

What is the context of Roman's 2:12? To whom is Paul speaking, and what is HIS purpose?

According to Revelation 20, Every human's deeds will be judged according to their merit. However, the life of the Person who did the deeds is judged based upon whether or not his name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. A judgment of deeds and a judgment of life. The former to rewards and latter to eternal fate!

Free will? (very briefly) In humanity it is the ability to make choices and to act upon those choices regardless of the consequences of the choice or action.

If human's do not have that:
How is it possible for one to kill another or one's own self?

How is it possible for a pastor of the ilk of Jim Jones, to do what he did? (Oh, "the devil made me do it!"....right!

The devil has no power that God does not grant him! And he certainly cannot touch a child of God without that permission! Yet, many Christians do dastardly deeds because they have the free will to do them.

IT WORKS EQUALLY WELL FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS AS IT DOES FOR SIN!

 

Anyone mind if I join this discussion?

 

izzaksdad, all the forums and discussions are open to you, as a Baptist. Jump in anytime!

 

Hello izzaksdad. Good to meet you.

Wes.

Just a statement of fact. His purpose is to show that the law will never be done away with and all men must face it's demands.
If you are right and Jesus has paid the debt to the law then the law is void. Which it clearly is not.

I was judge and found guilty for what I was and for what I did. I was judged according to the law not whether my name was in the book. If I'd been judge according to that book then I would have been judged by a book with names in and no law!

Talking about names in books. I used to think that it was a shame that we did not get written about in the bible like others were. That book is going to be knocking about forever. The thought occurred to me the other day that we just might be the people at the end of the book.

It is not possible unless it is the will of the Lord.

He was wrong, God made him do it! "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."
Adolf Hitler was raised up to murder millions upon millions and to leave the cities of Europe in flames, that was God at work! (I used to play on the bomb sites in London as I grew up. Great fun.)

No one has any power but the power to fulfill God's will.

That's what you say. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. Romans 7:17-20. That's what Paul says.
Under those circumstances I, if you don't mind me giving a little advice, would look again at your selfrighteous act of believing and see it for what it is worth. Best not to be credited with.

What does?