Election and the many views of it?

[ReformedBaptist]

Like I said, God endures with much patience vessels of wrath. Who are the vessels of wrath? Unbelievers.

This whole section of scripture is about God bringing in the Gentiles as well as the Jews, not invidual salvation.

There can be no corporate election without individual election. Both are in view in ROmans 9.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

I'm confused now. Are you saying you do or don't hold to Total Depravity? Scripture states we die spiritually when we sin (Eph. 2, Rom. 7) which contradicts augustinian original sin.

I have not read Augustine. I do hold to Total Depravity in that sin effects every part of our being. We inherited our fallen nature from Adam which means we are sinners by nature. We sin because that is what we are. But it is our sin that condemns us not Adams.

 

[Amy.G]

Salvation is not by a nation. Nations are made up of people. It has nothing to do with a land base

Salvation has now been offered to Gentiles, not just the Jews. Paul taught this repeatedly. We are now one new man in Christ Jesus, through faith, whether Jew or Gentile.

 

[webdog]

There can be no corporate election without individual election. Both are in view in ROmans 9.

Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual election whatsoever.

 

[Jarthur001]

No. God chose Israel, and the gentiles cannot question God as to why, nor change it, nor find God's choice of Israel as being something unjust.

Then you agree that God can STILL chose a people?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Now we have a psalm, do you have any real verses?

If you will, can you explain to me how a Psalmm is not a real verse?

 

[webdog]

I have not read Augustine. I do hold to Total Depravity in that sin effects every part of our being. We inherited our fallen nature from Adam which means we are sinners by nature. We sin because that is what we are. But it is our sin that condemns us not Adams.

Since a sinner is one who sins...we can't be sinners by nature. That makes no sense. True, we all have sin natures that in time will result in us sinning, but your view would have infants who die in hell unless you have another dispensation of salvation, which Scripture does not teach.

 

[Joe]

I am surprised by this reply brother. It almost completely uses the very words of Holy Scripture, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" and yet it is followed by "blah blah blah" :tear:

O Lord our God, be merciful to your people.

Did we have a misunderstanding? I was joking. I interrupted a conversation with this answer, the blah blah blah only meant I have heard it on the BB many times. I don't know which BBers use what arguments, have only heard them many times.

Seems to me, both sides could use that verse either way so it wasn't directed at anoyone in particular.

Here it is-
Ephesians 1:1-10 KJV


Ephesians 1

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

This is true, he did choose us before the foundation of the world. Before Adam and Eve ate the apple, messed up his perfect plan. Before sin entered the world. When hell was NOT intended for people.
When his perfect plan of Adam and Eve replenishing the earth in a sinless state was the course. But things changed.

 

[webdog]

Then you agree that God can STILL chose a people?

He has. He chose Israel as His people, and chose those who put their faith in Christ to call His own. He also chose Pharaoh to show His power, and chose Judas to fulfill prophecy.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual election whatsoever.

The Scripture itself doesn't support your conclusion.

Dr. Wallace wrote a pretty good article on the subject for those with an open mind. http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=384

Here are some snippets:

Proof that God elects corporately is not proof that he does not elect individually (any more than proof that all are called sinners in Rom 3:23 is a denial that individuals are sinners). I embrace corporate election as well as individual election. As Douglas Moo argues in his commentary on Romans (pp. 551-52),

… to call Rom. 9-11 the climax or center of the letter is going too far. Such an evaluation often arises from a desire to minimize the importance of the individual’s relationship to God in chaps. 1-8. But the individual’s standing before God is the center of Paul’s gospel.… Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.

Those who are chosen—whether individuals or groups—become what they are chosen for. Corporate election simply ignores this consistent biblical emphasis.

And one more, and this I consistently see from those who deny individual election:

The basic point is that if we cannot take one step toward God (Rom 3:10-13), if we are unable to respond to anything outside the realm of sin (Eph 2:1), then if anyone is ever to get saved, God must take the initiative. This initiative cannot be simply corporate; he must initiate in the case of each individual. Eph 2:1-10 is explicitly about God’s initiation in the case of individual believers; this sets the stage for 2:11-22 in which corporate election is seen. But there can be no corporate election unless there is first individual election. Corporate election, at bottom, is a denial of total depravity.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Did we have a misunderstanding? I was joking. I interrupted a conversation with this answer, the blah blah blah only meant I have heard it on the BB many times. I don't know which BBers use what arguments, have only heard them many times.

Seems to me, both sides could use that verse either way so it wasn't directed at anoyone in particular.

Here it is-
Ephesians 1:1-10 KJV


Ephesians 1

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

This is true, he did choose us before the foundation of the world. Before Adam and Eve ate the apple, messed up his perfect plan. Before sin entered the world. When hell was NOT intended for people.
When his perfect plan of Adam and Eve replenishing the earth in a sinless state was the course. But things changed.

Yes, we had a misunderstanding. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Since a sinner is one who sins...we can't be sinners by nature. That makes no sense. True, we all have sin natures that in time will result in us sinning, but your view would have infants who die in hell unless you have another dispensation of salvation, which Scripture does not teach.

Since a sinner is one who sins...we can't be sinners by nature. That makes no sense. True, we all have sin natures ...

Who is not making sense?


but your view would have infants who die in hell

I never said any thing close to this.

You clearly do not understand Calvinism or are simply trying to pick a fight.

I am going to bed. Good night.

 

[Jarthur001]

He has. He chose Israel as His people, and chose those who put their faith in Christ to call His own. He also chose Pharaoh to show His power, and chose Judas to fulfill prophecy.

If only you had Bible support it would be great.

Romans 9:16
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Going to bed....

BTW..
The thread closed before I could reply. You said plagiarism is a crime. I thought it was too two years ago, but as it turns out it is not. I have published writings and there is nothing I can do (under law) when someone takes a line from me without asking. All you can do is make bad press for them. It is the publishing companies that hate it and will often fire someone if they do it. Also most schools will kick you out if they see plagiarism. On the Web, if it is a free public site (free..You don't pay to read) you can take anything on that site because it is not under public copyright laws. The laws look at blogs and message boards as the same as a push pin board at work.

If you pay to read like the NY times, then there is copyright laws.

Now the BB has a rule and they can kick someone off, but they cannot take them to court.

This is for whatever its worth.

 

[webdog]

Who is not making sense?

The person who puts the cart before the horse by saying we sin because we are sinners...which by definition means one who sins. This is like saying a murderer is not someone who murdered someone, they murdered because they are murderers. According to this flawed thinking, we should be doing DNA screenings and throwing people in prison due to murderous tendencies since that is what makes them a murderer and not them actually committing the crime.

I never said any thing close to this.

You clearly do not understand Calvinism or are simply trying to pick a fight.

I am going to bed. Good night.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and since I was on the doorstep of being a calvinist, I do understand it. Ironic there was nothing sustantative whatsoever in your reply. Deal with the issues please.

 

[webdog]

If only you had Bible support it would be great.

Romans 9:16
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Going to bed....

BTW..
The thread closed before I could reply. You said plagiarism is a crime. I thought it was too two years ago, but as it turns out it is not. I have published writings and there is nothing I can do (under law) when someone takes a line from me without asking. All you can do is make bad press for them. It is the publishing companies that hate it and will often fire someone if they do it. Also most schools will kick you out if they see plagiarism. On the Web, if it is a free public site (free..You don't pay to read) you can take anything on that site because it is not under public copyright laws. The laws look at blogs and message boards as the same as a push pin board at work.

If you pay to read like the NY times, then there is copyright laws.

Now the BB has a rule and they can kick someone off, but they cannot take them to court.

This is for whatever its worth.

A. Clarke's thoughts on this are spot on, IMO. Thanks for the clarification about plagairism. I was unaware of that

I conclude, therefore, from these several instances, that the making or continuing any body of men the peculiar people of God, is righteously determined; not by the judgment, hopes, or wishes of men, but by the will and wisdom of God alone. For Abraham judged that the blessing ought, and he willed, desired, that it might be given to Ishmael; and Isaac also willed, designed, it for his first-born, Esau: and Esau, wishing and hoping that it might be his, readily went, ran a hunting for venison, that he might have the blessing regularly conveyed to him: but they were all disappointed - Abraham and Isaac, who willed, and Esau who ran: for God had originally intended that the blessing of being a great nation and distinguished people should, of his mere good pleasure, be given to Isaac and Jacob, and be confirmed in their posterity; and to them it was given. And when by their apostasy they had forfeited this privilege, it was not Moses’ willing, nor any prior obligation God was under, but his own sovereign mercy, which continued it to them.

 

[Joe]

Why so much disdain toward someone who wept for his brother?

Amy has disdain for you? :laugh: She doesn't know the concept.

Just curious but are you a man or a woman? You're pretty funny

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Amy has disdain for you? :laugh: She doesn't know the concept.

Just curious but are you a man or a woman? You're pretty funny

Take a guess. Sometimes the leading of these threads is just stupid.

 

[MB]

allow me to post the full context..

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault?

For who can resist his will?"

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

I think this is why we may argue so much over these doctrines. There is only one single doctrine that stands by it self. The rest are all supported in some way by other doctrines.

You have attempted to support your view of election with the help of irresistible grace. Yet none of the scriptures that are used to support irresistible grace are saying it is impossible to resist God. You have taken questions and made statements out of them. The fact that Adam hid from God in the garden proves man can and does resist God.

Jesus Christ the light of the world, came in to the world and this is what happened.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

There is no one who comes to the light on there own. We are all drawn John 12:32. What is really sad is we are all in love with the darkness because all our deeds were evil, before Salvation. I can't believe that there was even one man who came to the light because he did righteously.

There seems to be three views of election.
1. Chosen before the foundation of the world particularity. No one is saved without being chosen, and everyone chosen will be saved regardless of the circumstances. It seems that election becomes Salvation it self here.

2. Chosen before the foundation of the world all together in Christ meaning that through the shed blood of Christ we all have the same opportunity because Christ died for the sins of the whole world. While I agree that all are chosen in Christ not all were chosen in the beginning.

3.The Jews were chosen first and after the coming of Christ. Salvation was sent to the Gentiles. Act 28:28 The reason because of the rejection of Christ by the Jews. I believe the parable in Matt 22:1-14 is showing how the Gentiles came to be chosen.

What say you?
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello MB,

I think this is why we may argue so much over these doctrines. There is only one single doctrine that stands by it self. The rest are all supported in some way by other doctrines.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. I feel there are many doctrines the the church stands together as one. All being supported by the Bible.

You have attempted to support your view of election with the help of irresistible grace. Yet none of the scriptures that are used to support irresistible grace are saying it is impossible to resist God. You have taken questions and made statements out of them. The fact that Adam hid from God in the garden proves man can and does resist God.

Not so. I DID support my view.

What I quoted and what you quoted me as quoted was word for word the Word of God. I added nothing to it. I removed verses numbers only. I was not even thinking of irresistible grace when I posted those verse. You was lead to think that by the Spirit of God. I replied to some that said it would be unjust for God to do something. God can do anything and never be unjust.

Jesus Christ the light of the world, came in to the world and this is what happened.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3 is a great passage about election. Above these verses you quoted are verses that tell how a person can come to the light.

There is no one who comes to the light on there own. We are all drawn John 12:32. What is really sad is we are all in love with the darkness because all our deeds were evil, before Salvation. I can't believe that there was even one man who came to the light because he did righteously.

I agree.

There seems to be three views of election.
1. Chosen before the foundation of the world particularity. No one is saved without being chosen, and everyone chosen will be saved regardless of the circumstances. It seems that election becomes Salvation it self here.

Election is not salvation but rather to salvation.

2. Chosen before the foundation of the world all together in Christ meaning that through the shed blood of Christ we all have the same opportunity because Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

This is called election of a group based on a condition. Most non-Calvinist would say the condition is if you believe. If you believe you are indeed saved and that would end it would it not? It is nonsense to talk about electing a man to something he already has. Election is no longer needed if one believes. Calvinist teach that election is all by grace with no condition needed that will lead to salvation.
ELECTION TOOK PLACE IN ETERNITY, SALVATION TAKES PLACE WHEN THE SINNER BELIEVES.

3.The Jews were chosen first and after the coming of Christ. Salvation was sent to the Gentiles. Act 28:28 The reason because of the rejection of Christ by the Jews. I believe the parable in Matt 22:1-14 is showing how the Gentiles came to be chosen.

All were chosen before the foundation of the world and this includes the Gentiles

There are many other views of election.

ANOTHER: The elect is only the Jews. This view means that Gentiles are not part of Rom 8:28-39.

ANOTHER: The view that election was in view of foreseen repentance and faith. This would mean God looked and learned something.

ANOTHER: Election to service. All are called to serve Christ.

There are other views as well. But it all comes down to this..

1) Who did the electing? God.

2) When was the electing done? Before the world was formed.

3) Why was the electing done? In order to open the eyes of a sinner that the sinner may believe to the glory of God in order that He may have a people set apart of His own.

 

[MB]

Hi Jay;
You said;

Not so. I DID support my view.

What I quoted and what you quoted me as quoted was word for word the Word of God. I added nothing to it. I removed verses numbers only. I was not even thinking of irresistible grace when I posted those verse. You was lead to think that by the Spirit of God. I replied to some that said it would be unjust for God to do something. God can do anything and never be unjust.

No there is no support for your view of election in questions. Questions aren't supportive of anything. They are questions not facts.