Election... Fair/Unfair?

[Primitive Baptist]

romanbear, read all the text! The Bible is not a buffet. You cannot pick and choose what you like and leave the rest and remain faithful to the word of God.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

John recorded this statement many times. The church is made up of members who are saved by the grace of God. Revelation 3:20 is hardly an "offer" of eternal life. In fact, I want you to show me where God ever offered eternal life to any man in the Scriptures. If you are looking for a gospel proposition, you will have to do better than this.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20)

If this is an "offer" of eternal life as you are trying to maintain, what did Jesus mean one verse before this when He said,

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelation 3:19)

 

[tyndale1946]

Originally posted by romanbear:
There is no salvation with out repentance

What are you going to do with these scriptures romanbear?... Pay particular attention to the 29th verse of Romans!... Bear in mind all are included in unbelief!... Brother Glen

Romans 11:[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[4study]

Frogman,

First of all Moses is the Law-Giver to the People, the mediator between God and Israel. In this capacity he represents the Law, the Law, though perfect, cannot deliver anyone into the promised land. Christ is the one who fullfilled the law and thus completed the Covenant of Works given to man from Adam to Moses, which produced only death; This covenant then being completed Christ ushers in the Covenant of Grace which justifies every believer from Adam to our present day and time.

According to Romans 9:31,32 Israel did not "attain to the law of righteousness" because "they sought it not by faith". In your opinion, if you care to share it, why was Joshua and Caleb (among the same generation that wondered in wilderness for 40 years) allowed to enter into Canaan land while Moses was not?

 

[Primitive Baptist]

He did not enter in because of unbelief (Hebrews 3).

 

[4study]

Primitive Baptist,

So this goes back to my intention of using the ilustration of Moses regarding election. If Moses, certainly a born again child of God, did not enter in "because of unbelief", it shows that "unbelief" does not necessarily connote "being lost" or "an unregenerate person rejecting Christ". How then should we approach Biblical phrases like "unbelief", "not of God", "not believe", etc.? Do these terms regard being "lost" or "born again" in all cases?

Furthermore, this also illustrates that even children of God can fall short of the blessings of God's covenant promises (i.e. I Cor. 10:12 "let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall"). What is "election" then if this be true? Does it concern the new birth or a relationship with God that receives the blessings of the covenant? IMO, an illustration of the later is Caleb and Joshua.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

The elect are those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). The purpose of God according to election is irrespective of faith, repentance, good works, etc. Conversely, in Arminian election, God regarded those things. Therefore, it is Arminian election, and not Calvinistic election, that makes God a respecter of persons. Furthermore, the elect do fall short; Hebrews 3, for example. This does not mean they are not of the elect.

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (II Timothy 2:13)

"Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (II Timothy 2:18, 19)

The unbelief of the Jews did not make the faith of God of none effect (Romans 3:3-4). For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, that is, irrevocable (Romans 11:29). God is faithful to His people. This is why the blood of Christ, and not our faith, is the foundation of our acceptance with God. It is by faith that we stand on the rock and foundation of our Salvation, Jesus Christ. It was not faith that shed its precious blood. It was not faith that hanged between heaven and earth and reconciled, redeemed, forever perfected, sanctified, justified, and made me complete in itself. Christ did those things for the elect in Himself. We are complete in Him (Colossians 2:10). In due time, we are made experimental partakers of that which Christ obtained for us at Calvary. However, in the sight of God, the elect were reckoned in Christ in His obedience and sufferings. We were justified a Calvary, that is, justified in Him. Blessed be the name of the LORD!

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

Paul did not say that he lived by his faith, but by the faith of Christ. The modern translations of the Bible translate "faith of Christ" as "faith in Christ." They need to rethink their position! dia pisteos iesou xristou, the genitive of possession or source, is used here. This is none other than the faith of God's elect (Titus 1.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Each of the seven Christian Churches of Revelation chapter two needed to repent and improve in specific areas of weakness. If God did not care to improve their faults or think these people to be Christian, He would not have written to these seven churches in Revelation. As with any group of people some undoubtedly repented while others continued to backslide.

Romanbear, do you think that true Christians who backslide and do not repent go to Heaven? Remember, before you decide, the Old Testament says that God is married to the backslider. [Jeremiah 3:14] 'Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married to you; and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.' Also, remember that the Christian has an Advocate, [I John 2:1 e & f] namely, Jesus who is seated at the right hand of God. [Hebrews 1:3 e & f]

 

[romanbear]

Hi P.B.;
A quote from you;
------------------------------------------------------------
romanbear, read all the text! The Bible is not a buffet. You cannot pick and choose what you like and leave the rest and remain faithful to the word of God.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

John recorded this statement many times. The church is made up of members who are saved by the grace of God. Revelation 3:20 is hardly an "offer" of eternal life. In fact, I want you to show me where God ever offered eternal life to any man in the Scriptures. If you are looking for a gospel proposition, you will have to do better than this.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
My reply;
You just got a scripture that proves it .If you'll take the time to look at the verse you will see that no where in this sentence is it talking to a group.If it were it would have said "Men" instead of "man".Maybe you are seeing things as you think they should be and not as they are.
The Church at Ladoicea was a church formed by men without repentance thus a false church. A lukewarm Church is one that does things half way thus they are luke warm.The half of the gosple they left out is repentance.Which is why Christ told them to repent. Christ said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to see the kindom of heaven.These people in Ladoicea were rich and in need of nothing.Remember the richman that came to Christ and said he had kept the law and ask what must he do to get eternal life.He couldn't give up his wealth....They worshiped there wealth. They were a false church.Maybe your the one who needs to take a closer look at your Bible....There is such a thing called, a false church.....
Romanbear

 

[Frogman]

Read my earlier post again. Moses represents the Law; the Law has no power to deliver into the rest of the promised land. Moses as the Law giver was not permitted to go over; true he failed to sanctify God before Israel, namely, he struck the Rock (which typified Christ) the second time; when he was commanded to only speak to the Rock. For this disobedience he was not permitted to enter into Canaan. The reason for this represents the two advents of Christ; The first time he is struck (as Moses struck the Rock); at his next coming he will not be treated so; but will rule from Jerusalem.

The episode shows how that the Law could not deliver, even Moses could not be delivered by it and had to rely on the Grace of God. The people were required to wander for forty years because of unbelief, this was not a punishment on Joshua and Caleb, because they did not lack faith in the ability of God to deliver the land into their hands.

This is not merely my opinion, but is supported by the Holy Bible. Though Moses was denied entrance into the promised land, he was received of God. This is showing what was mentioned in another post above how that 'he being faithful, cannot deny himself.'

Hope this helps to explain my belief.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[romanbear]

Hi frogman;
A quote from you;
-------------------------------------------------Hi Romanbear,

It hasn't come to pass yet.
-------------------------------------------------
My reply;
It came to pass at Christ death and resurection.
If not show me. don't just tell me.I can't take mans word for it.

just to important.
Romanbear

 

[Rev. G]

And then in contridiction to Calvinistic belief, God says, ' . . . and whosoever believeth in Him shall not be ashamed {perish}. Hardly Calvinistic words . . . .

Actually, these are VERY "Calvinistic" words, just as the words from John 3:16 are very "Calvinistic." "Calvinists" believe that "whosoever" believes on Christ shall not perish / shall not be ashamed / etc. The question is, "Who shall believe?" Those who are granted faith and repentance.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi tyndale;
That verse I was talking about was Rev 3:20

What about
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romanbear

If you will read the prophecy of Joel this is referencing you will notice this time has not yet come to pass. This is speaking of a time yet future and is dealing with Israel.
Joel 2 & 3 show this to be speaking of a time of trouble we have not seen.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Rev. G]

Is election unfair?

"What then shall we say? Is God unfair? Not at all! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.'"
- Romans 9:14-15

 

[romanbear]

Hi tyndale1946.
I didn't know you applied what is given to the Jews to your self.The all is referring to the Jews who were being spoken of.Maybe you should look this over again yourself.The Jews are Gods chosen people aren't they?The gentiles are not.....
Romanbear

 

[Ray Berrian]

Rev. G,

In order to tailor Calvinism you have to qualify or place an appendium or qualifier to John 3:16. Please, don't add to the Word of God. [Revelation 22:18] Grace is Christ's proffered gift to human beings. [Ephesians 2:8] Addiing an appendix, qualifier or footnote is disallowed in Biblical theology.

 

[romanbear]

Hi frogman;

I hope you don't consider me a pest.I realize that this is obviously what you wanted me to see below.In reference to Acts 2:21

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

I have to admit that this is a matter of opinion but I suppose you would say the same thing about these verses.

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

I believe that the crucifixion Is when the sin debt was paid by our Lord. And that this is the time He was referring to. Please look at the next verse.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

The Jews are being brought back into the land of Isreal as we speak . Isreal again has become a nation.We are living in the last days are we not?Isreal has been in captivity in Russia and other nations all around the world.If this isn't the time then it will never come.Jews are being alowed to leave there captive nations because of an act of God.Nothing else could have brought this about only by God's hand is this happening. All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.Now!

Romanbear

 

[tyndale1946]

Originally posted by romanbear:The Jews are Gods chosen people aren't they?The gentiles are not.....

Okay I guess this forum is closed... Everybody that is not a Jew... Get off the board! ... Hey don't blame me they are Gods chosen people!... Right? ... Blame Romanbear!... Btw Romanbear you got yourself in a trap again... What are you going to do with that scripture that says we are Jews inwardly?... Now that really confuses things but with the proper application it harmonizes... Could it be Romanbear that you are a Gentile/Jew?... I let you chew on that for awhile ... Brother Glen

 

[Frogman]

[QUOTE
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [/QUOTE]

Bro. read this scripture and harmonize it with your idea of whosoever shall call upon His name. This scripture says, plainly in fact, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?"

This puts the believing in line with the rest of scripture such as 2 Thess. 2.13. No one, nor group of people will call upon the name of the Lord, except first they believe.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

even from your arguement below you cannot show that this scripture was fulfilled at Calvary, nor that it has been fulfilled as we speak. Though Israel, nationally is in the Land of Promise, is Jerusalem not in captivity? Can we say honestly that Israel is not in captivity? You have to answer these for yourselves.

{On second thought, the scenario you are claiming for the complete work of God in Israel does match your overall theology that God is not able to do anything until man makes a move. Who is He waiting on...Israel or Palistine...who must make the first move to call upon the name of the Lord? We don't know...but He does know when the time is appointed that this scripture shall be fulfilled and thus your argument validated.}

The Jews are being brought back into the land of Isreal as we speak . Isreal again has become a nation. We are living in the last days are we not? Isreal has been in captivity in Russia and other nations all around the world.If this isn't the time then it will never come.Jews are being alowed to leave there captive nations because of an act of God.Nothing else could have brought this about only by God's hand is this happening. All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.Now!

Romanbear

yes, I do agree we are living in the latter or the last days. But we still have not seen the time this scripture is talking about. yes Israel is brought back to her land, still we have not seen the time of Jacob's Trouble the prophet Jeremiah spoke of I believe in Ch. 30. Still, we see scripture proclaiming all of these things must be fulfilled. In God's appointed time. At this time bro. we have no widespread persecution of those who call upon the name of the Lord.

{a thought for your ponderance: Why does not Israel call upon the name of the Lord and be saved?}

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[romanbear]

Hy Tyndale;
You could never trap me sir, and you never have.Paul was a Jew inwardly and outwardly.
Romanbear

 

[romanbear]

Hi frogman;
A quote from you
------------------------------------------------------------
yes, I do agree we are living in the latter or the last days. But we still have not seen the time this scripture is talking about. yes Israel is brought back to her land, still we have not seen the time of Jacob's Trouble the prophet Jeremiah spoke of I believe in Ch. 30. Still, we see scripture proclaiming all of these things must be fulfilled. In God's appointed time. At this time bro. we have no widespread persecution of those who call upon the name of the Lord.

{a thought for your ponderance: Why does not Israel call upon the name of the Lord and be saved?}
----------------------------------------------------------------
My reply
The Book of revelations speaks of the 144000 Jews who will probably be the remnant.That will go through the tribulation.It is my belief that these Jews will be witnessing during the trib.They will come about during the trib. they will call on the name of the Lord because of the witness of the two witnesses that will be placed here by God.I don't believe that there will be any other Christians here at this time,because of the rapture.The restrainer is the Holy Spirit who dwells with in Christians will then be removed and then all Hell will break loose on man.It's not going to be a time for the weak of heart. But you cannot say that the verse in question has not already been fulfilled.This verse was first spoken of by Christ.most of gospel could not be fulfilled with out the Death of our Lord. After that man no longer lives under the Law but under Grace.
You also brought up the wide spread of persecution of the saints.How long since you've been to China or Arabia or Bosnia,Iraq or Iran.Russia Germany or any muslem nation anywhere in the middle east including Israel.Do you really believe that the news on CNN tells you the whole story?.Maybe you should look at the news from various Christian news comentators
Romanbear