Featured Election Question

Yes J...most who understand this teaching wonder why God has saved any of us..it is a GREAT MERCY that He saves any of us:wavey::thumbs:

 

We become elect when God elects us and that was before the foundation of the world(eph 1:4)

God doesn't choose us because we choose him. We choose him because he has first chosen us. election isn't God knowing who would believe and electing then. Election is God choosing according to the good pleasure of his will, not because of anything good in us or any choice we make.

 

Says the one who has nothing to offer other than copying/pasting

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

I would suggest you hold off on that opinion James, until we were able to meet face to face with open bibles...then we might see what is what.

Unless you can answer what I copy and paste, why would you be critical?

I post excellent links..use them and learn:wavey:

 

A few points to make:

Re: parable of the sower
If you read Jesus' explanation, He makes it perfectly clear that the second and third people groups received the word/seed. Reference John 1:12 and see that those who receive Him are the ones born of God. The only way to determine that they are not believers, is to judge it by outward appearances. Yet Jesus said that we cannot know anyone by outward appearance.

Re: Mark 10:35-40
Notice that James and John wanted to sit at Jesus' right and left "In His Glory" - in other words, to share in His glory.
Hebrews 2 says that this glory was bestowed upon Him because He suffered. If glory is a reference to being allowed to go to heaven, then we would have to include Jesus as one who was merely allowed entrance into heaven. Far from it, this glory is His inheritance. He is the heir of all things. Remember also, that Jesus was talking to two apostles who believed in Him, and told them that to sit on His right or left was not His to give. It is for those for Whom it has been prepared. He was making it pretty clear that not every believer would have this honor

Look at this exchange immediately after the rich young ruler walked away from Jesus:
Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last; and the last, first. (Matt 19:27-30)

Notice that He says In the regeneration, which is the resurrection, which is at His coming, when He will sit on his glorious throne, that anyone who has left everything for His Name's sake, will inherit eternal life.

In Romans 8, Paul said that the sufferings of this present world are nothing compared to the glory which will be revealed in us, and then immediately says the whole of creation is longing for the revealing of the "sons of God", which he then places at the time of our resurrection.

Have you ever read Romans 8, and wondered why it seems that Paul is jumping around so sporadically? Joint-heirs, suffering, redemption of our bodies, predestination, and back to suffering, all within about 15 verses. He's not jumping around like a schizophrenic, he's talking about the same thing.

Have you ever noticed (most haven't) that scripture calls Isaac the "only son" of Abraham? If you don't believe me, read Hebrews 11:17, Genesis 22:12 & 16.

But didn't he have another male child (Ishmael). How could Isaac be his only son?

Read Genesis 15:1-4, when God first called Abram.

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,
“Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great.”
Abram said, “O Lord God, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir.” Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.”

And what was Sarah so upset about when she wanted Hagar driven away?

Therefore she said to Abraham, “Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac.” The matter distressed Abraham greatly because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named. (Genesis 21:10-12)

A son, to a Hebrew, was not simply a male child. A son was an heir. An heir is the recipient of an inheritance.

Remember that God promised Abraham that his REWARD would be great. That's where Colossians 3 explains:
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. (Colossians 3:23-24)

Sorry, my earlier reference was only verse 23, missing verse 24.

Have you ever noticed Colossians 1:24?
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

Or 2Timothy 2:10-12?
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen[/I], so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;


There is just so much more, and I hope I haven't presented it in a nonsensical way. It is just that I know how these scriptures tie together, but many others don't see it because of preconceived notions.

I can go further if you like

 

Yet you can't take your own advice? You inserted your critical opinion that I'm off track, without any attempt to answer what I wrote.

If you stick around this thread, you just might learn something about election - from scripture, not web links

Oh, I almost forgot......:wavey:

 

James..my friend..I have learned that you have some interesting ideas,,,,however your theology is flawed, badly.You do not understand the biblical doctrine of election, because you resist teachers God has given to the church. If you posted and wanted to learn that would be one thing.
You come in and post how most of the church is wrong....

correct my cut and paste links...line by line...go ahead and try:wavey::thumbs: you do that...and I will respond directly to your posted response.Go for it:laugh: I do not think you can begin to do it...so surprise me.

 

Election?

What would be one's best guess as to the population of the earth at the time of Abram of Ur of the Chaldees?

Did the God issue a general call to the population of the earth at that time and Abram was the only one to answer that call or did the God specifically call one man Abram?

Abram's dad was an idolator for sure therefore I am not sure just what Abram knew about the God. The family had already left Ur for Canaan but stopped at Haran when the God called Abram to leave his family and go where he would show him and he, God would make of him, Abram a great nation.

We are told Abram departed and Lot tagged along. Not sure God was happy about, Lot or unhappy for that matter.

I believe Abram was elected of God and because of that election Abram, departed.

Was salvation involved? Well I can say of a surety that Abram, Abraham will be in the kingdom of God.

But what about that man with those fourteen children who lived 500 miles from Abram on the other side of the mountains?

So even though salvation will accompany the calling of Abram was he called for salvation or was he called so the Christ as of a lamb, without spot or blemish could come into the world to become the author and finisher of the faith.

The faith by which Abram could receive salvation. And not only Abram but the man with the fourteen kids and even them also could be saved by that same faith through the grace of the God who had called Abram.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

Can they still be called unto the faith? Be elected?

 

you start a thread with your erroneous links, and I just might rebut it. I don't know if it would be a good idea, though, because if your heroes were ever dismantled by scripture in front of you, it just might destroy your faith.

However, you're so steeped in those opinions that I doubt if you would ever acknowledge the truth of scripture in this matter.

You want to prop yourself up as a teacher, when all you're doing is spreading propaganda like a Jehovah's Witness. Same style. The only difference is that they're always passing out Watchtower booklets and Awake magazine, while you're passing out web links.

So hows about you go search your web links to see if you can copy and paste a rebuttal to my position.

As for me, this thread was started by Judith. So that is who I am answering here.

 

That's the way I see it; it seems to raise the ire of a lot of 'sola fide folks' though.

 

Coming from the infralapsarian view, God saw all humanity as fallen in sin. In His grace, love and mercy, He chose His sheep from amongst them. The rest remain fallen.

 

PBs hold the same as you all Willis; predestination concerns only the salvation of the elect, all others are left in their fallen condition.

 

Is that where He said some, outwardly, were whitewashed tombs; but inwardly were full of dead men's bones? Or wolves in sheep's clothing? Or hypocrites who strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel?

All those who looked "saved" by their outward actions, yet were denounced by Christ.
Was Jesus mistaken? I'm really curious as to your answer.

Re: 1John 2:4 - Didn't Paul write in scripture "I want to know Him" ?? (Philippians 3:10)
Are you suggesting that Paul wasn't "saved" ??

I'm also curious where in Matthew 10:22 do you read anything about keeping commands?
I'm also curious how you seem to have reversed the cause-and-effect of that verse?

Jesus clearly stated that those who endure to the end will be saved, not those who are saved will endure to the end. And the context is enduring persecution (verses 16-21). I'm not sure where you see commands there

could you explain?

I agree with that, depending on what you mean by "saved".

But what is the purpose of the judgment? What will be the outcome?
I'm not sure what the purpose would be if someone has already been declared just by God, and his works have proven his faith before men.

Wouldn't a works judgment seem a little asinine if it serves no purpose?


I'm ok with you disagreeing. It's just that you asked a question as if you didn't have an answer.
I thought you had a sincere motive to receive various opinions and viewpoints.

What I honestly thought is that you were interested in what scripture has to say on the matter of election. But it seems you were only looking for an answer that would agree with what you already believe.

It's ok if that's what you were looking for, but maybe you should have stated that from the start. Then I wouldn't have bothered responding.

Maybe next time, you should preface with "I'm only looking for answers from XXX perspective, please."
Then you won't have to disagree with the answers.

 

Hi Judith, I have not read this thread, and so if any of this is redundant, I am sorry.

You usage of the term "Election" indicates you define "Election" as the Unconditional Election of Individuals before the foundation of the world.

Many of those, i.e. mainstream Calvinists, who hold to the foregoing definition, inexplicably deny that those not chosen for salvation were by the omission damned to Hades and Gehenna.

Others, those Calvinists to embrace the logical consequences of the TULIP, sometimes referred to as Hyper-Calvinists, logically affirm that those not chosen are therefore predestined to damnation.

Now if you are willing to set aside the Calvinist definitions, and just use the Bible, then election simply refers to God making choices for various purposes, thus Judas was indeed elected to be the Betrayer.

If we narrow our focus and use "election" to only refer to God's choice of individuals for salvation, then we must address 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God chose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. For any individual to have faith, they must have heard the gospel of Christ, thus "election" as now defined, only occurs during our lifetime, after we have lived without mercy, and occurs when God sets us apart in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

 

I believe there is a scripture that states after the resurrection we will be judged according what we did in the flesh.

 

That's an understatement percho, ALL scriptures concerning the judgment state that. He's going to render to every man according to their works.

 

Relate the above to my post concerning Abram er Abraham because he was called and the man with the fourteen kids who wasn't called.

Or take those called today, the house of David, Abraham and the rest of humanity and apply them to Acts 15:14-17.

Does all of mankind fit in there somewhere relative to salvation.