Election spoken of IN SCRIPTURE...pt2

[Iconoclast]

If you post here...use scripture.
If you use a term...show it in scripture.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Iconoclast]

Rockson,
In a soon to be closed thread you said this;

Obviously if these people weren't saved and Jesus said without question he longed and desired to have them saved (gathered)....then what happens to irresistible grace?[/QUOTE]

Well certainly he didn't do it for HE SAID THEY were not willing he didn't say he wasn't. If he was willing and that's what he wanted then how Calvinists think it should have been irresistible grace time.

And no disrespect but you still haven't answered regardless your claims to the contrary how Jesus said he was willing to save and gather and yet irresistible grace was not employed. If it was God's will to save them they would have been saved if irresistible grace was true.

.Rockson...can you explain how you understand this term in reference to election? What does the term mean? Who are the objects of it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Predestination and Calling
By Charles Haddon Spurgeon Mar 6, 1859Scripture: Romans 8:30Sermon No. 241From: New Park Street Pulpit Volume 5

Now, in considering this solemn subject, let me remark that there are two kinds of callings mentioned in the Word of God. The first is the general call, which is in the gospel sincerely given to everyone that heareth the word. The duty of the minister is to call souls to Christ, he is to make no distinction whatever—"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." The trumpet of the gospel sounds aloud to every man in our congregations—"Ho, everyone that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." "Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man" (Prov. 8:4). This call is sincere on God's part; but man by nature is so opposed to God, that this call is never effectual, for man disregards it, turns his back upon it, and goes his way, caring for none of these things. But mark, although this call be rejected, man is without excuse in the rejection;
the universal call has in it such authority, that the man who will not obey it shall be without excuse in the day of judgment. When thou art commanded to believe and repent, when thou art exhorted to flee from the wrath to come, the sin lies on thy own head if thou dost despise the exhortation, and reject the commandment. And this solemn text drops an awful warning: "How shall ye escape, if ye neglect so great salvation." But I repeat it, this universal call is rejected by man; it is a call, but it is not attended with divine force and energy of the Holy Spirit in such a degree as to make it an unconquerable call, consequently men perish, even though they have the universal call of the gospel ringing in their ears.
The bell of God's house rings every day, sinners hear it, but they put their fingers in their ears, and go their way, one to his farm, and another to his merchandise, and though they are bidden and are called to the wedding (Luke 14:16,17,18), yet they will not come, and by not coming they incur God's wrath, and he declareth of such,—"None of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper" (Luke 14:24).
The call of our text is of a different kind; it is not a universal call, it is a special, particular, personal, discriminating, efficacious, unconquerable, call. This call is sent to the predestinated, and to them only; they by grace hear the call, obey it, and receive it. These are they who can now say, "Draw us, and we will run after thee."

If in your Bible you turn to 2 Timothy 1:9, you will read these words—"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling." Now here is the first touchstone by which we may try our calling—many are called but few are chosen, because there are many kinds of call, but the true call, and that only, answers to the description of the text. It is "an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." This calling forbids all trust in our own doings and conducts us to Christ alone for salvation, but it afterwards purges us from dead works to serve the living and true God. If you are living in sin, you are not called; if you can still continue as you were before your pretended conversion, then it is no conversion at all; that man who is called in his drunkenness, will forsake his drunkenness; men may be called in the midst of sin, but they will not continue in it any longer.

 

[Iconoclast]

Fourthly, it is personal: "He hath chosen you." Then we will look at the effects of the doctrine—see what it does;

I also give you an extract from the old Baptist Confession. We are Baptists in this congregation—the greater part of us at any rate—and we like to see what our own forefathers wrote. Some two hundred years ago the Baptists assembled together, and published their articles of faith, to put an end to certain reports against their orthodoxy which had gone forth to the world. I turn to this old book—which I have just published [The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)]— and I find the following as the

3rd Article: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto."

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think where the disconnect comes in regards to predestination and calling is the other side's misusage of the word 'world'. When they see that word, they automatically think everybody whoever lived and that is not so. They use that when they talk about John 3:16.

Look at this verse..."We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth;[Colossians 1:3-6] Now, that which I bolded can not mean everybody whoever lived because a multitude of ppl have died w/o hearing the gospel of the Christ.

Then look at this verse..."He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."[John 1:10] "He was in the world.."in His human body He was in the world, yet not everyone who has ever lived has saw Him in His physical body. "And the world was made through Him..." Now this is true as He made all we see, including mankind. "And the world did not know Him..." This can not include everybody whoever lived as only those non-believing do not know Him.

So, the word 'world' does not mean everybody whoever lived in most cases.

 

[SovereignGrace]

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,"[Ephesians 1:4, 5] Here it states we were chosen by God from before the foundation/creation of the world. And those He chose/elected from before the foundation of the world, He predestined to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ.

And then in Paul wrote to the church at Ephesus "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."[Ephesians 1:11-14]

Now, look at verse 13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." So, it is those who have been elected/chosen from before the foundation of the world who will believe in the message that is concerning the cross work of the Christ, the gospel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."[Romans 8:28-30]

Notice in verse 28 it says "God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God...' Now, who are those who love God? 1 John 4:7 states those who love are born of God and knows God. Knowing God is not just some acknowledgement of Him, but knowing Him in an intimate relationship. So, it is those who have been born of God who love God and He works all things together for their good.

The sticking point to some comes from "He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son..." You can not divorce this from the "Golden Chain of Redemption". Those who were chosen by God from before the creation of the world will ALSO be conformed to the image of the Christ. So election is not only to be conformed to the image of the Christ, but entails the chain which includes electing, predestinating, calling, sanctifying, and glorifying.

 

[The Archangel]

Hold on here a minute. Read the whole passage and not one mere verse. In 1 Kings 19 Elijah is fearing for his life believing he was going to be killed by Jezebel and Ahab. God speaks to him and reveals things were going to change and to go back and anoint Jeru King over Israel. God comforts him with the fact that he had preserved or reserved 7,000 Israelite (and the important part) who had not bowed their knees to Baal.

In other words not everyone has been persecuted to death as Elijah was thinking and God wanted him to know that. There is no way one can force an interpretation that God set up for these people to be saved and others not and I'm taking about for eternal life salvation. These 7,000 were faithful and loyal to God as they did not bow their knew to Baal.....and God was going for his own sovereign purposed preserve these individuals from being physically killed.

It has nothing to do with God having already decided all these people would be saved spiritually speaking by some irresistible grace. There are times in God's sovereignty where he'll allow his children to become martyrs. There are other times he curtails it or stops it as in Saul before Paul....he was persecuting Christians and God stepped in and as far as Paul's measure of persecuting he was doing it was curtailed. So God wasn't going to allow all the faithful who hadn't worshiped Baal to be killed. He reserved them and protected them until the new King would take control. Not choosing for eternal life spiritual salvation! Such would be a forced interpretation without merit.

There are a myriad of problems with your understanding here.

1. Elijah has escaped, first to Judah and then to Mt. Horeb (Mt. Sinai). His life is not in danger at the point God makes His statement. He is distraught--thinking himself to be the last faithful Israelite (as opposed to Judahite). He's looking to "retire" and leave Israel to their sinfulness. It is quite the pity-party, but it is not a fear of death--which he specifically asks for.

2. God does not simply telling Elijah "this is what's going to happen;" rather God is saying "this you shall do." God is the agent of the change and His instruction to Elijah is active; it is my no means passive as you suggest. By the way, the anointing Hazael as King of Damascus demonstrates something about God's rule of all nations, not just Israel. And, God's "recommissioning" of Elijah here demonstrates to Elijah that God is not done with Israel, as Elijah had suspected.

3. Elijah is not lamenting Israelites (those in Israel as opposed to Judah) being put to death for their faith. The texts dealing with Elijah's life and ministry make it quite clear that it is not only Ahab and Jezebel who are persecuting faithful Israelites, killing them. No, quite the contrary, there were very few, if any, faithful Israelites. Notice what Elijah says: "For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away.” (1 Kings 19:10 ESV). It is not the king and queen who have engaged in this persecution, it is "the people of Israel." A new king (Jehu) isn't going to fix that. In fact, Jehu is anointed to destroy the house of Ahab, which he does. He also kills all the prophets of Baal. However, he continues to worship the golden calves of Jeroboam. No King of Israel (as opposed to Judah) does what is "good" in the sight of the Lord. Israel is still hostile to those who worship Yahweh.

4. "Bowing the knee" and "Kissing" Baal are metaphors for worship. It is clear that God isn't preserving them from death, but from idolatry.

5. The phrase translated "I will leave" is the Hebrew וְהִשְׁאַרְתִּי is a hifil stem which, in this instance, shows causation--the subject performs the action. So, God is doing something--He's causing these 7,000 to come to Him and remain faithful to Him. That's just what the Hebrew there means.

6. Paul, in Romans 11, in quoting 1 Kings 19, understands the passage as I've outlined it above. He states, rightly, that Elijah's complaint is against Israel, not her kings and queens. And he rightly translates the Hebrew as causative, relaying God's words to Elijah as "I have kept for myself..." What were they kept from? Idolatry, not death.

The Archangel

 

[Rockson]

The phrase translated "I will leave" is the Hebrew וְהִשְׁאַרְתִּי is a hifil stem which, in this instance, shows causation--the subject performs the action. So, God is doing something--He's causing these 7,000 to come to Him and remain faithful to Him. That's just what the Hebrew there means.

No I still think you're interpretation is just something you're reading into the text. Elijah had already lamented in the chapter he was the only one left serving God and all others were put to death. God showed him he was wrong about that very thing. God did not allow (for reasons of God's sovereignty) persecution to break out on a massive scale and those who were faithful (not having bowed their knew to Baal) were preserved. Nothing to do with picking them for salvation(as in eternal life salvation) and I checked multiple commentaries after reading your post(not that that proves anything) and ones I've glanced at agree with my assessment. It has to do with preserved from a potential persecution. Such doesn't mean God isn't encouraging those who have been faithful to stay so therefore even if I agreed with your Hebrew word defining still doesn't insist a meaning God picked only this number to be saved because of irresistible grace.

 

[Iconoclast]

Rockson,
In a soon to be closed thread you said this;

Could you explain your quotes that are recorded in post 2?
What is your understanding of the theological term irresistible grace that you keep using?
If you could give some clarification that would help.