Elevation of women in the church and in society

[Rufus_1611]

She led men.

That is not God's will.

It was obvious in this matter that it was His will.

Can God honour disobedience to His word, no matter what the excuse?

Just as it is a shame for men to wear long hair there were God willed/ordained exceptions and there are lessons to be learned from those exceptions.

Where do you find God commanding her to lead because there were no men to be judge?

It was a consequence of Israel doing evil in the sight of the Lord. As a result, He sold them into the hand of Jabin and appointed a woman to judge them. Throw in Barak's faithless cowardice and you see that there was a very effeminate spirit upon the Israelites. If there was no man that was worthy to lead Israel into battle, then I doubt that there was a man worthy to judge Israel.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

So if there were a body of believers with no men willing to lead God would accept a woman pastor?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Please explain the Greek word, Diakonos, translated in KJV as "servant" in regards to Phoebe(Rom 16:1), and not as deacon's wives, as shown in another passage.

You say you use the Bible, and I agree, let's use the Bible, but translate it correctly, please.

Cheers,

Jim

I'm not a translator. I'm just a reader and an imperfect doer. The Holy Bible says she was a "servant".

SERV''ANT, [L. servans, from servo, to keep or hold; properly one that waits, that is, stops, holds, attends, or one that is bound.]

1. A person, male or female, that attends another for the pupose of performing menial offices for him, ot who is employed by another for such offices or for other labor, and is subject to his command. The word is correlative to master. Servant differs from slave, as the servant''s subjection to a master is voluntary, the slave''s is not. Every slave is a servant, but every servant is not a slave. (Source: Webster's 1828)

 

[Rufus_1611]

So if there were a body of believers with no men willing to lead God would accept a woman pastor?

One time, in all of the judges, kings, and apostles, he made an exception for an example. I see this not as evidence that He would accept a woman pastor but I suppose you could make that argument if you had a burden to advocate for women in the leadership.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

One time, in all of the judges, kings, and apostles, he made an exception for an example. I see this not as evidence that He would accept a woman pastor but I suppose you could make that argument if you had a burden to advocate for women in the leadership.

I have no agenda, and I think you know that. But God did allow a woman to lead His people as prophetess and judge. We cannot argue that. You say He did it for an example, I don't see any Bible evidence for that contention.

It is not ALWAYS rebellion for women to lead, is it?

 

[Rufus_1611]

I have no agenda, and I think you know that. But God did allow a woman to lead His people as prophetess and judge. We cannot argue that. You say He did it for an example, I don't see any Bible evidence for that contention.

It is not ALWAYS rebellion for women to lead, is it?

One time long ago, during the time of the judges, there was one exception. So yes, it is not ALWAYS rebellion of the woman to lead (though I will maintain that it was the rebellion of the men that necessitated it). However, the criteria for being a leader/pastor of a new testament church has been quite clearly established, so it would be rebellion for a woman (or anyone else) to think that a woman meets that criteria.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Pastoring a church I agree - but running a company? Being a mayor, governor, president, prime minister?

Its hard to come with a dead set rule when God Himself allows at least one exception. Who is to say He won't allow the same exception today?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Pastoring a church I agree - but running a company? Being a mayor, governor, president, prime minister?

Its hard to come with a dead set rule when God Himself allows at least one exception. Who is to say He won't allow the same exception today?

If we're talking about Christians here, I'm not sure how a Christian woman can run a company, be mayor, governor, president or prime minister and still do what the Bible tells her to do...

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. " - Titus 2:1-5​

It's a curse for women to rule over the people of God...

"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." - Isaiah 3:12​

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

So it was a curse when Deborah ruled?

Do you think she was a keeper at home? (You will note that I have used that requirement for wives all through the thread)

 

[Rufus_1611]

So it was a curse when Deborah ruled?

Israel did evil in the eyes of the Lord so He ordained a woman to be judge over them. This was an embarrassing period for the Israelites and she knew it, for this is what she was explaining to Barak.

"And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh." - Judges 4:9​

Do you think she was a keeper at home?

She dwelt under a palm tree and folks came to her so...yes, I guess she was.

"And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment." - Judges 4:5​

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Barak's situation was case specific for his disobience - it never mentions the nation as a whole.

So God's curse resulted in victory for the land? Deborah and Barak's great victory hymn in the next chapter was a sign of God's curse on the land?


So women can lead a nation and be a keeper at home?

There is nothing about Israel's rebellion here. She is listed like all the rest of the judges. For some reason God led her lead the land. Sometimes it is His will for women to lead.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Barak's situation was case specific for his disobience - it never mentions the nation as a whole.

"And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead." - Judges 4:1
​

So God's curse resulted in victory for the land? Deborah and Barak's great victory hymn in the next chapter was a sign of God's curse on the land?

I suspect there is more than one example of God bringing us victory, in spite of ourselves.

So women can lead a nation and be a keeper at home?

In this case, it would appear she did.

There is nothing about Israel's rebellion here.

Doing evil in the eyes of the Lord is rebellion against the Lord.

She is listed like all the rest of the judges. For some reason God led her lead the land.

To His glory. He'll speak through an ass as well, doesn't mean we should put them in positions of authority.

Sometimes it is His will for women to lead.

Change "sometimes" to "one time" and we are in agreement.

 

[EdSutton]

I care to read the Bible and the Bible doesn't say anything about Phoebe being a deaconess.

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:" - Romans 16:1​

Actually, it does in Rom. 16:1.

1συνιστημι δε υμιν φοιβην την αδελφην ημων ουσαν [και] διακονον της εκκλησιας της εν κεγχρεαις (WHNU; Aland/Black et al. UBS1968)
1συνιστημι δε υμιν φοιβην την αδελφην ημων ουσαν διακονον της εκκλησιας της εν κεγχρεαις (TR1550; TR1894; Hodges/Farstad, et.al, Greek NT According to the MT1985)

Five Greek texts and all with the exact same wording save for the addition or omission of a single dubious "and" [και ] The Greek word "διακονον (transliterated into English as 'diakonon')" is the exact word for deaconess, with the femine ending, and is the exact same root rendered as "deacon", servant, helper, and/or minister, in various places and versions.

Let's look at some English versions.

1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon [a] of the church in Cenchreae. ( Footnotes: a. Romans 16:1 Or servant) (TNIV)
1 I commend to you (A) our sister Phoebe, who is a servant [a] of the church in Cenchreae. (B) (Footnotes: a.Romans 16:1 Others interpret this term in a technical sense: deacon, or deaconess, or minister) (HCSB)
1 I recommend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a helper[a] in the church in Cenchrea. ( Footnotes: a. Romans 16:1 helper Literally, "deaconess." (NCV) 1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant[a] of the church at(A) Cenchreae, (Footnotes: a. Romans 16:1 Or deaconess) (ESV)1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deacon in the church in Cenchrea. (NLT)
1 NOW I introduce and commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cenchreae, (AMP)
1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant[a] of the church in Cenchrea.(Footnotes: a. Romans 16:1 Or deaconess) (NIV)

I definitely disagree with the TNIV and NLT renderings of the word, for they do not take into account the feminine ending, in an attempt to, no doubt, be 'PC' and "gender neutral", and remove what some see as a 'prohibition' on women serving as 'deacons'.

However, being "gender neutral" (in a 'PC' way, of course) is something the Bible does not do! (BTW, I did not say women should be deacons; I said the Bible says Phoebe was a deaconess!)

The AMP (and some of the others versions, in the footnotes), however, got it exactly right!

"Deaconess!"

Ed

P.S. I also "care to read the Bible", FTR.

 

[Cutter]

To His glory. He'll speak through an ass as well, doesn't mean we should put them in positions of authority.

.​

Great quote!:laugh:​

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Your words about the nation are repeated for every judge, not just the female one. She is part of a list of judges, the particulars differed, but the pattern is the same. There is nothing special said about her judgeship to differentiate her from the rest. And I still can't see how a divine curse will result in victory.

Deborah is one of those "problem passages." It just doesn't seem to fit the rest of scripture. All we can do is trust that God did the right thing and that, in His will, women are well able and well qualified to lead. When we get to heaven it will all make sense.

And if I ever hear an ass speak I suspect I would be well advised to listen .

 

[EdSutton]

To His glory. He'll speak through an ass as well, doesn't mean we should put them in positions of authority.

You mean we don't put them in that position already?

I think we often do! :laugh:

BTW, sometimes that would have to make more sense than some men (and women, as well) do! :thumbsup:

At least the donkey would speak from the correct end of the anatomy!

(Should I go ahead and snip this last sentence, or wait for a Mod?)

Think I'll just wait and see what happens! :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

And if I ever hear an ass speak I suspect I would be well advised to listen .

Just turn on the "Telly" or the radio, about anytime, and I'm sure you will hear some. I know I sure have!

Whether or not I should have 'listened' is probably debatable.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

So it was a curse when Deborah ruled?

Do you think she was a keeper at home? (You will note that I have used that requirement for wives all through the thread)

The Bible says she was the wife of Lapidoth, and as another noted, dwelt under a palm tree, a reference to the home, IMO.

4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. 5 And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6 Then she sent and called for Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali (Judg. 4:4-6a , NKJV)

One will also note that she sent for Barak, and not that she went out to seek him.

In the 'secular world', especially that of the 'Kingdom' of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, it's history shows at least three married queens that reigned. Mary II was married to William of Orange; Victoria to Albert; and current Queen, Elizabeth II is Married to Philip. Yet they all were the Queen. Their homes? Who knows, but I would add that when Albert died of typhoid at the young age of 42, Victoria went into mourning and seclusion, and didn't appear in public for 25 years, and except for her 'Golden Jubilee', wore only black for almost 40 years until her own death at the age of 81, in lifelong mourning for Albert.

Ed

 

[Sopranette]

Some of you really are a despicable, sad, angry little group. How dare you distort God's Word to suit your own slanted view of half of His most beloved creation?

Sopranette

 

[Rufus_1611]

Some of you really are a despicable, sad, angry little group. How dare you distort God's Word to suit your own slanted view of half of His most beloved creation?

Sopranette

How very emotional of you. Care to be more objective and specific?