Ellen White a Prophet of God?

[BobRyan]

Jim says "if angels say anything at all - let those they speak to be accursed" - (in essence).

But Paul says that we are NOT to reject prophets (1Cor 14) and he says we are to TEST the words of Apostles and even Angels (Gal 1:6-11) INSTEAD of saying "the test is that IF they say anything they are wrong" -- the text actually goes a direction much closer to "harmony" with 1Cor 12 and 14.

How surprising that Paul should be so "consistent" with scrpture in Gal 1 as compared to Jim's approach above.

Or maybe not.

In Any case I have already given the "reasonable" basis for non-SDAs rejecting Ellen White as a prophet - based on "scripture".

But for some strange reason - people are looking for some "other" avenue.

Kinda strange if you ask me.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Bob;
OR maybe it is YOU who are sinning in redefining what it is that Paul taught?

Bob said --

I was hoping that the references to 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 11 and 1Cor 14 would be accepted by you as something that "Paul taught". Did I assume too much?

Did you answer the question about 1Cor 12?

If so I did not see it.

Did you address the point about NT references to women prophets??

If so - I did not see it.

Isn't your point that the NT does not ALLOW women to be prophets???

OR aren't you claiming that in the NT Women prophets only speak to female congregations??

If so - the texts provided leave you with some "explaining" to do.

Please respond.

Did I already post that??

Ok - good! I thought so.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Jim -

Do you believe in the continuation of the 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts??

No?

Really?!!

Well then there we see you - rejecting this topic before it even gets started.

How about the female prophets of 1Cor 14?

Would you insist that they attend "women's church only"?? Do the women in your church have their OWN service?

Acts 21:8 God's Word states that Philip had 4 daughters who were ALSO prophets (without any mention of their being "lesser beings"). Surely you youself would not have stooped so low as to have listened to a word God spoke through them - right??

1Cor 11:
5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

Aren't you just a little tempted to "redefine prophesying" in that text?

(Didn't you just say that only a MAN can prophesy??)

Luke 2:36 Anna is another prophetess in the NT – a valid spirit-filled prophetess in the NT.

Did Anna ask that the men leave the temple before speaking in Luke 2??

Judges 4:4-6 God's Word states that "Deborah" was a JUDGE over all of God's people AND a prophet. (Without any mention of her being a "lesser being as a woman and so it was a shame to the great beings - the men" as some cultures insist.)

So what about these cases in scripture of women prophets?

How does SCRIPTURE order the importance of that gift/ministry??

1Cor 12:
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps,
administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

This means that when God gives out His spiritual gifts to EACH one (not just the men) and decided to give the gifts of Prophecy to women - He was placing them right under the position of Apostle. (This brings us back to that "more than a prophet" issue).

It seems like the only way to assert spiritual authority over a prophet is to claim to be an Apostle. But what about "more than a prophet"? Then we have the issue of whether it is morally correct to give a woman such spiritual authority - as being a Prophet - given that they are second only to Apostles. Maybe God sinned in doing such a thing??

Wow! When will all those questions get answered??

Never?

Hmm!


Instructive.

In Christ,

Bob

Ok -

 

[Born Again Catholic]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
Bob
I reviewed the pro-EW site, even ignoring differences of doctrine, the excuses they give for some of EW's comments seem more like a desperate attempt to justify a women's statements beyond any reasonable logic. It would truly be comical if it wasn't so destructive to the faith of many.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since you "claim" you are "fine with the doctrinal differences" then what is meant by "destructive to the faith of many"??
In Christ,
Bob

Bob

I said I ignore the differences of doctrine not that I was fine with doctrinal diferences.

SDA's seem to try to cover some outlandish statements with pathetic excuses for logic. These statements I am refering to our were she gave statements conflicting with the historical account given in the Bible not matters of doctrine. The defenders tacitlly admit that the plain understanding of her words are in conflict but then go on to promote an illogical conclusion. The breaking of bones defense is one of the most ridiculous.

Bob pretend many of these ridiculous statements were said by a Catholic and were defended in a similar manne by Catholicsr can you honestly say you wouldn't think the excuses were pathetic. Honestly answer that and I don't see how you can remain a follower of EW.

 

[steaver]

So now let me ask you a question -- since you "now claim" you do NOT want my opinion on whether this was of God or not -- what are you asking for that is NOT my opinion?

Ellen White declared that God's power would throw the buildings down in NY.

There is no opinion needed here. If 9/11 was the fulfillment of Ellen's prophecy then it would be a FACT that God's power destroyed the buildings. Your factual answer would follow as "yes" God destroyed the buildings.

If, on the other hand, you conclude that it was not God's power that destroyed the buildings in NY, you would then factually answer "no" and realize that Ellen's prophecy did not come to pass on 9/11.

No opinions needed. Facts are facts. Just give me a yes or no and I will know your position concerning this prophecy.

"Yes" God destroyed the buildings or "no" God did not destroy the buildings.

Very simple!

But, if you want to call it an opinion Bob, you may go right ahead, just answer the question one way or the other. Did God's power destroy the buildings as Ellen said He would on 9/11? Yes or no?

God Bless!

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
Jim -

Do you believe in the continuation of the 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts??

No?

Really?!!

Well then there we see you - rejecting this topic before it even gets started.

How about the female prophets of 1Cor 14?

Would you insist that they attend "women's church only"?? Do the women in your church have their OWN service?

Acts 21:8 God's Word states that Philip had 4 daughters who were ALSO prophets (without any mention of their being "lesser beings"). Surely you youself would not have stooped so low as to have listened to a word God spoke through them - right??

1Cor 11:
5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

Aren't you just a little tempted to "redefine prophesying" in that text?

(Didn't you just say that only a MAN can prophesy??)

Luke 2:36 Anna is another prophetess in the NT – a valid spirit-filled prophetess in the NT.

Did Anna ask that the men leave the temple before speaking in Luke 2??

Judges 4:4-6 God's Word states that "Deborah" was a JUDGE over all of God's people AND a prophet. (Without any mention of her being a "lesser being as a woman and so it was a shame to the great beings - the men" as some cultures insist.)

So what about these cases in scripture of women prophets?

How does SCRIPTURE order the importance of that gift/ministry??

1Cor 12:
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps,
administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

This means that when God gives out His spiritual gifts to EACH one (not just the men) and decided to give the gifts of Prophecy to women - He was placing them right under the position of Apostle. (This brings us back to that "more than a prophet" issue).

It seems like the only way to assert spiritual authority over a prophet is to claim to be an Apostle. But what about "more than a prophet"? Then we have the issue of whether it is morally correct to give a woman such spiritual authority - as being a Prophet - given that they are second only to Apostles. Maybe God sinned in doing such a thing??

Wow! When will all those questions get answered??

Never?

Hmm!


Instructive.

In Christ,

Bob

Ok - </font>[/QUOTE]Probably not until you at least deal with the passage in Timothy. These other questions of yours are a diversion obviously supplied by you to divert attention away from Paul's clear instructions concerning AUTHORITY.

You people give AUTHORITY to this woman which she ought not have.

Are you going to deal with it?

No?

Very instructive.


In HIS service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

Claudia said,


In 1844, at 17 years of age, Ellen Harmon was kneeling in a circle with a group of other young people. They were praying to God for wisdom and guidance, and while they were praying, suddenly young Ellen was taken in vision and was shown people walking along a narrow, winding pathway with a steep precipice on either side. The people were walking along very carefully, and as long as they kept their eyes heavenward, light shown on their pathway. As soon as they looked down, however, the light vanished, and they fell to the rocks below.
__________________________________________________
But Bob says,"
She was a 15 year old at the time they mentioned this to her and was only 17 in 1844 Oct 22. Her name then was Ellen Harmon and she had been given no visions or any prophetic ministry.

__________________________________________________

Perhaps I am confused. Or is it the SDA's who are?

Perhaps I have seen a vision?

Old Joe Smith saw visions also and told us of things NOT revealed in Scripture.

Just like EGW and her "investigative Judgement" huh?


In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

Are Ellen White's visions additional revelation from God that we don't have in the scriptures?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob,

Are Ellen White's visions additional revelation from God that we don't have in the scriptures?

The visions God gave Ellen White are just like the communication he gave to AGabus, Philips daughters, the women of 1Cor 11 and 1Cor 14, Anna, Deborah in the book of Judges etc.

If you are asking if the gift in 1Cor 12 is simply the gift of "re-phrasing scripture" I believe it is never stated that way in scripture.

According to the Word of God the means of communication is defined by God as "dreams or Visions" and the "Content" of the communication is strictly up to God.

Having said that - all doctrine is still "proven" - "Validated" - sola scriptura!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

------------------------------------------
Since you "claim" you are "fine with the doctrinal differences" then what is meant by "destructive to the faith of many"??
In Christ,
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B A C
I said I ignore the differences of doctrine not that I was fine with doctrinal diferences

I guess that is where the word "differences" comes in that I mentioned above.

the question remains.

B A C

I am refering to our were she gave statements conflicting with the historical account given in the Bible

Since you are not actually guoting anything or referencing anything I assume it is "up to my imagination"??

Is this the same kind of "object to historical account" where you object to the account of Creation that is given by God?

What historical account in the Bible are you talking about?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding the Millerite expectation for the Lord's return -- I stated that when the Millerite message first reached Ellen Harmon she was around 15. So that would be some time before 1842.

Claudia then says that in 1844 AFTER the Oct 22 date - AFTER the time had passed --


"
In 1844, at 17 years of age, Ellen Harmon was kneeling in a circle with a group of other young people. They were praying to God for wisdom and guidance, and while they were praying, suddenly young Ellen was taken in vision ..."

This did not change "history" - because it is STILL true that in 1842 she was 15 and the fact that it was a few years BEFORE 1844 that she first heard and agreed with William Miller's ideas.


Beliefs she had as a teen BEFORE ANY vision was given can not possibly be used as a means of "testing the content of some vision".

The Point remains.

Jim said -

Perhaps I am confused.

I think that would be a logical conclusion on this point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As "already pointed out" the spin Jim puts on the text in Timothy for women is spun in such a way as to make the following scriptures contradict Jim's views.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Jim -

Do you believe in the continuation of the 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts??

No?

Really?!!

Well then there we see you - rejecting this topic before it even gets started.

How about the female prophets of 1Cor 14?

Would you insist that they attend "women's church only"?? Do the women in your church have their OWN service?

Acts 21:8 God's Word states that Philip had 4 daughters who were ALSO prophets (without any mention of their being "lesser beings"). Surely you youself would not have stooped so low as to have listened to a word God spoke through them - right??

1Cor 11:
5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

Aren't you just a little tempted to "redefine prophesying" in that text?

(Didn't you just say that only a MAN can prophesy??)

Luke 2:36 Anna is another prophetess in the NT – a valid spirit-filled prophetess in the NT.

Did Anna ask that the men leave the temple before speaking in Luke 2??

Judges 4:4-6 God's Word states that "Deborah" was a JUDGE over all of God's people AND a prophet. (Without any mention of her being a "lesser being as a woman and so it was a shame to the great beings - the men" as some cultures insist.)

So what about these cases in scripture of women prophets?

How does SCRIPTURE order the importance of that gift/ministry??

1Cor 12:
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps,
administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

This means that when God gives out His spiritual gifts to EACH one (not just the men) and decided to give the gifts of Prophecy to women - He was placing them right under the position of Apostle. (This brings us back to that "more than a prophet" issue).

It seems like the only way to assert spiritual authority over a prophet is to claim to be an Apostle. But what about "more than a prophet"? Then we have the issue of whether it is morally correct to give a woman such spiritual authority - as being a Prophet - given that they are second only to Apostles. Maybe God sinned in doing such a thing??

Wow! When will all those questions get answered??

Never?

Hmm!

Instructive.[/quote]

So now we find Jimi asking that we NOT think about how scripture conflicts his view of the text in Timothy --

These other questions of yours are a diversion obviously supplied by you

So now I AM the source of PAUL's clear instruction in 1Cor 11 and 12 and 14??

(How instructive -- again).

Jim you are squirmming on this one.

Why not show how your spin of Timothy fits with the above teachings from Paul and other Bible writers?

Why so silent??

No wait!! Let me guess!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So now let me ask you a question -- since you "now claim" you do NOT want my opinion on whether this was of God or not -- what are you asking for that is NOT my opinion?

Originally posted by steaver:

Ellen White declared that God's power would throw the buildings down in NY.

There is no opinion needed here. If 9/11 was the fulfillment of Ellen's prophecy then it would be a FACT that God's power destroyed the buildings.

Isn't that circular reasoning?

Didn't you say that you wanted to SEE IF she had a prediction WITH a fulfillment and so instead of ASSUMING that it is a fulfillement you wanted to see details that could be "verified"??

So what kind of logic are you using there to "verify"????

Opinion??

I point to the facts that ARE verifiable - you want to ignore them and ONLY focus on "opinion" in your effort to see IF this is a fulfillment. But then you spin the opinion angle in a circular argument as if it is SHOWING something.

Why in the world are you doing that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Steaver quotes...

Ellen said... " I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power ."

Ellen said that God would do this destruction to these buildings.

Do you believe that God did this Bob?

Do you believe that it was God's power which destroyed these buildings on 9/11 Bob?

I would like a simple yes or no from you. Do you believe that it was God's power that destroyed these buildings ?

Why don't you want to answer yes or no?

But, if you want to call it an opinion Bob, you may go right ahead, just answer the question one way or the other. Did God's power destroy the buildings as Ellen said He would on 9/11? Yes or no?

No less than four times a have asked you the same question.

Here is number five....Did God's power destroy the buildings on 9/11?

a) Yes
b) No
c) I don't know

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

No less than four times I have asked how in the world my opinion would change anything at all when it comes to "proving" that this was a fulfilled prophecy or not.

You seem to want to go out on your rabbit trail EVEN if it serves no actual purpose. I find that very strange.

BUT MAYBE what you really mean to say is that GIVEN the VERIFIABLE specifics "NY city, Tall skyscrapers, certified to be fireproof, burning like pitch, firemen unnable to stop it" - THEN EVEN YOU would have to conclude that this is a MATCH (based on the verifiable specifics that is).

And that your "problem would THEN BE" that you would be challenged by the view that Ellen White Claims that God has of that event.

Is this what you are trying to say? Is it simply "collateral" from admitting to the obvious "verifiable" facts that is the problem?? If that is really your problem why not look at the Bible examples I gave at the start -- examples of the SAME issues in scripture and work through them??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

You all should go online and read a book written to explain the prophetic role of Ellen White if you would like to understand it.

"Messenger of the Lord"
--The Prophetic Ministry of Ellen G. White
by Herbert E. Douglass

READ IT ONLINE HERE:
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/TOC.html

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob,

Are Ellen White's visions additional revelation from God that we don't have in the scriptures?

The visions God gave Ellen White are just like the communication he gave to AGabus, Philips daughters, the women of 1Cor 11 and 1Cor 14, Anna, Deborah in the book of Judges etc.

If you are asking if the gift in 1Cor 12 is simply the gift of "re-phrasing scripture" I believe it is never stated that way in scripture.

According to the Word of God the means of communication is defined by God as "dreams or Visions" and the "Content" of the communication is strictly up to God.

Having said that - all doctrine is still "proven" - "Validated" - sola scriptura!

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Then what value do the writings of Ellen White have to the church today besides historical value for your particular denomination?

 

[BobRyan]

First of all - I have already argued that a cross-denominational evaluation will always find that she spoke on the "distinctives" that differntiate this denomination from others. So someone outside that doctrinal belief system would always reject her as not a valid prophet.

Secondly - some people don't accept 1Cor 12 either. So they for sure would not have any benefit received from any message God gave to Ellen White no matter what the content. She could be warning them about Islamic terrorism and they would have to reject it outright!

But as for "why" God would even HAVE such a gift as non-canonical prophets...

What value did Agabus have?

What value did the prophets of 1Cor 14 have?

What value did the women prophets of 1Cor 11 have?

What value did the judge and prophet Deborah have?

What value did the non-scripture writing prophet Nathan have?

Here is the "instruction" of just how much importance the NT church was to give to non-canonical prophets.

1 Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
4 [One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

Paul argues that "Each one" had a revelation from God in Corinth. Certainly this has to be at the very least "many" and can not be "Assumed" to exclude women as though they were lesser beings.

1Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Prophets must be tested by what has gone before them (sola scriptura). But the church is to desire this gift above the others.

1Cor 14
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.
38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner

This instruction is a far cry from what many Christians will submit to today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[av1611jim]

1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

WHO is spinning like a top Bob?

The best you can do is dodge, avoid, divert and accuse, yet you have NOT dealt with the issue of AUTHORITY!

Your church gives unbiblical authority to this woman.

Deal with it. For the third time I have asked you to address it. Yet you heap aspersions upon me or my character. How very instructive.

And BTW: The examples you give of other women in Scripture are prior to the closing of the canon. This occured in approx 96 AD. You CANNOT point to any "prophetess" who supplied any kind of "revelation" from God after the closing of canon. In ADDITION you cannot supply any authoritative teachings from those women who ARE cited in scripture. Therefore: deal with the issue of AUTHORITY in the church. No woman is to usurp authority OVER THE MEN IN THE CHURCH.

Clearly your "church" is in direct opposition to Scripture.

Deal with the passage as it is written! You cannot. Not without your OWN brand of SPIN.

Also; you CONVIENIENTLY ignore this:
1Co 14:34
¶ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36
¶ What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40
Let all things be done decently and in order.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[D28guy]

Born again Catholic...

"What do you think of the claims of this website?"

WHAT website???

Mike