Elopement--Is it a sin?

[agedman]

I do think the "neighbor" has an impact on the decision making.

Not so much as in whether they are righteous neighbors, but the unrighteous that can be part of those righteous or unrighteous.

Back in the 50's and 60's, interracial dating and coupling was socially frowned upon. The musicals such as: West Side Story, South Pacific, Show Boat,... all were pushing back against a social norm that was certainly unrighteous but still was a norm.

In the present, it is still in the heart of society to view mixed race couples with some element of less than full acceptance. There may not be "open" rebuke, but there are huge undercurrents that still drive hard winds against the mixed race couple.

Considering the "neighbors" is important and more so if they are the George Jefferson and Archie Bunker types. The two desiring marriage need to not ignore potentially a very real issue so that they are prepared and able to withstand the "torments" or even the "slights" of neighbors.

Folks, those of us who are believers and had to deal with the public, in particular those that assume skin color equates to character, this is a very difficult issue to get across. It is true that such should not really need to be considered an issue; however, it is an issue and does need to be considered by the couple.

Married life and married living is not easy for the believers. The force of the adversary will find all weaknesses to exploit in the desire to extend control or even destroy the marriage - to mar the wonderful picture of the relationship of Christ and the church.

All areas of concern need to be thought through and perhaps even some kind of "game plan" on how to handle what ever unrighteousness is expressed even by the "righteous."

 

[Aaron]

The question is, if God has put together a man and a woman in marriage, what business of his (or her) parents is it that they disapprove?

Because God said to honor your mother and your father. The god in your statement is, more often than not, just another name for one's self will. If one is trying to determine God's will in a union, it is somewhat disingenuous to neglect those tenets of His counsel that one finds simply disagreeable.

Your focus is solely on an attempt to nullify the Commandment. Give that one up.

The question is, how does a certain union honor them?

 

[Sapper Woody]

I'm sure the prophet's parents disapproved when God told him to marry a harlot. I'm sure they felt dishonored, too. But were they? Either marrying outside of approval isn't dishonoring, or God commanded him to sin. Which we know God can't do. On the same note, I'm sure the neighbors were disgusted by the act as well.

Point is, if it's God's will, it doesn't matter what anyone else says.

 

[agedman]

I'm sure the prophet's parents disapproved when God told him to marry a harlot. I'm sure they felt dishonored, too. But were they? Either marrying outside of approval isn't dishonoring, or God commanded him to sin. Which we know God can't do. On the same note, I'm sure the neighbors were disgusted by the act as well.

Point is, if it's God's will, it doesn't matter what anyone else says.

The point should be that IF one possess the signs of a prophet and able to pass the two tests of a prophet, THEN one can marry a harlot, not consult parents for advice and consent and not consider the neighbors and testimony.

Because it is only in THAT way the matter would fit what you desire to present as allowable for all by Hosea's example.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm sure the prophet's parents disapproved when God told him to marry a harlot. I'm sure they felt dishonored, too. But were they? Either marrying outside of approval isn't dishonoring, or God commanded him to sin. Which we know God can't do. On the same note, I'm sure the neighbors were disgusted by the act as well.

Point is, if it's God's will, it doesn't matter what anyone else says.

Reminds me of:

3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.
4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of Jehovah; for he sought an occasion against the Philistines. Now at that time the Philistines had rule over Israel. Judges 14

 

[Sapper Woody]

The point should be that IF one possess the signs of a prophet and able to pass the two tests of a prophet, THEN one can marry a harlot, not consult parents for advice and consent and not consider the neighbors and testimony.

Because it is only in THAT way the matter would fit what you desire to present as allowable for all by Hosea's example.

So, are you saying the law and the commandments are particular to some people, but don't apply to others?

 

[kyredneck]

Only prophets can marry whores? Wow, what a privilege that would be!

Hosea was acting out, by God's command, for all Israel to see, the extent of the longsuffering God had for those northern tribes, and extrapolate it out to include all of us if you wish. His longsuffering leads us all to repentance.

 

[Aaron]

I'm sure the prophet's parents disapproved when God told him to marry a harlot. I'm sure they felt dishonored, too. But were they? Either marrying outside of approval isn't dishonoring, or God commanded him to sin. Which we know God can't do. On the same note, I'm sure the neighbors were disgusted by the act as well.

Point is, if it's God's will, it doesn't matter what anyone else says.

Nice try. It's like taking the circumstances of the priests profaning the sabbath in the execution of their office and saying the common Israelite could carry burdens. And far from corroborating the point that your marriage is no one else's business, Hosea's marriage to Gomer was everyone's business. It was a testimony against Israel. It was intended to be scrutinized. Hosea's office was extraordinary, and the circumstances of his calling extraordinary.

Same with Samson. You guys are reachin'.

God did not tell you to disobey your parents in your marriage. I have God's words on the subject of marriage, and His words on Hosea. He didn't speak to you as to Hosea. He didn't speak to Samson either. Samson was obeying his lusts. I think that's more like what you have done, and, as far as you can see, it's worked out fine—to date.

But you see how it worked out in the end for Samson, and Hosea's marriage was not a blessing. It was a grief and a burden.

Your attempts to hallow your self-will by these lame appeals to circumstances which do not apply to your situations are laughable. Your advice to people to follow your example is unbiblical.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

this discussion is getting good!

 

[Sapper Woody]

Nice try. It's like taking the circumstances of the priests profaning the sabbath in the execution of their office and saying the common Israelite could carry burdens. And far from corroborating the point that your marriage is no one else's business, Hosea's marriage to Gomer was everyone's business. It was a testimony against Israel. It was intended to be scrutinized. Hosea's office was extraordinary, and the circumstances of his calling extraordinary.

Same with Samson. You guys are reachin'.

God did not tell you to disobey your parents in your marriage. I have God's words on the subject of marriage, and His words on Hosea. He didn't speak to you as to Hosea. He didn't speak to Samson either. Samson was obeying his lusts. I think that's more like what you have done, and, as far as you can see, it's worked out fine—to date.

But you see how it worked out in the end for Samson, and Hosea's marriage was not a blessing. It was a grief and a burden.

Your attempts to hallow your self-will by these lame appeals to circumstances which do not apply to your situations are laughable. Your advice to people to follow your example is unbiblical.

See, now you're making it extremely personal, even implying that our marriage won't work in the future. And all I did was point out that God told someone to do something that you say goes against His law. If God commands us to sin, then that brings down pretty much our whole belief system. So I am saying He didn't command him to sin. Which means it isn't a sin.

I am not the one who brought up Samson, but I agree that Samson's story has no bearing. God didn't tell him to do it; God just meant his action for good, much like Joseph's brothers.

And you actually made my point about Hosea's marriage and the neighbors. It didn't matter what they thought. God told him to do it.

 

[Aaron]

See, now you're making it extremely personal, even implying that our marriage won't work in the future.

You're the one who put your marriage up as an example (albeit that was in another thread). I'm just responding to your description thereof. If it is as you say, that the parents in your situation have done an about face and now all is warm and fuzzy and lovey-dovey, I will say with a high degree of certainty that it is because of reasons* other than that you disregarded them and "obeyed God." You eschewed His counsel for trifling reasons, and your advice to others to do likewise in a decision the consequences of which will affect them for the rest of their lives is more than foolish.

You say it's getting personal, but you're the one who made it so. A fella posted looking for advice on a life situation. Should he marry a girl against her fathers' wishes? Absolutely, you said, if it's "God's will," by which many, if not all, mean, if you want to. Whose business is it?

My advice to him is to help him discern God's will apart from his lusts in a decision that will either be a blessing or a curse (and nothing in between) for the rest of his life. I couldn't, and can't, let rash and unadvised statements go unchallenged.

Look at Hosea's marriage. A grief. Yes, He was commanded to marry a prostitute. (Bet you're not so open to the suggestion when it's time for one of your children to marry.) But a grief the entire time. Look at Samson. Cajoled into revealing the secret of his power, betrayed and enslaved until the day of his death.

And since you put your own marriage up as an example (in another thread, and I have every reason to believe the originator of that thread is lurking in this one) I gotta say, it's too early to tell, and, we don't have the whole story. Sorry if you feel that's too personal, but your marriage is everyone's business. It is the business of the families you're uniting, it is the business of the witnesses who were present, it's the business of the state, and of society at large.

*Not the least of which is your apparent role in the military, but that's for another discussion.

 

[Sapper Woody]

You're the one who put your marriage up as an example (albeit that was in another thread). I'm just responding to your description thereof. If it is as you say, that the parents in your situation have done an about face and now all is warm and fuzzy and lovey-dovey, I will say with a high degree of certainty that it is because of reasons* other than that you disregarded them and "obeyed God." You eschewed His counsel for trifling reasons, and your advice to others to do likewise in a decision the consequences of which will affect them for the rest of their lives is more than foolish.

You say it's getting personal, but you're the one who made it so. A fella posted looking for advice on a life situation. Should he marry a girl against her fathers' wishes? Absolutely, you said, if it's "God's will," by which many, if not all, mean, if you want to. Whose business is it?

I believe that you are just responding to a situation. But there are some things which are just simply out of bounds. Implying to someone that their marriage is going to fail is one of those things. As they say, "Them's fightin' words". It's one thing to talk straight to a man, it's quite another to insult (and this is the way it was taken) his wife.

My advice to him is to help him discern God's will apart from his lusts in a decision that will either be a blessing or a curse (and nothing in between) for the rest of his life. I couldn't, and can't, let rash and unadvised statements go unchallenged.

And I have not given any advice. I merely answered his question. After looking at his situation from an outside perspective, and given only what we know from the thread, I'd advise him to forget about the girl. Just because I am saying that you don't NEED parent's blessings to get married, doesn't mean I don't think that you should seek it. Parents often (but not always) have more insight into the situation and can step back from emotions, think rationally, and try to find the will of God. Too often, young people get caught up in that "first love" (or second, or third) and can't think rationally. So, I don't think that getting married without the blessing is foolish. But I do think that getting married without seeking the blessing is foolish.

Look at Hosea's marriage. A grief. Yes, He was commanded to marry a prostitute. (Bet you're not so open to the suggestion when it's time for one of your children to marry.) But a grief the entire time.

And this is sidestepping the point. He WAS commanded to marry her. Against his parent's wishes, I'm sure. But the precedent was set. God's will concerning marriage outweighs the parent's feelings.

Look at Samson. Cajoled into revealing the secret of his power, betrayed and enslaved until the day of his death.

I'm not disagreeing with you here. I think I've made that clear both in this and my last post.

And since you put your own marriage up as an example (in another thread, and I have every reason to believe the originator of that thread is lurking in this one) I gotta say, it's too early to tell,

How long does it take to convince you? 10 years? 20 years? Death?

and, we don't have the whole story.

And because I do wish to honor my in laws, I won't share the "whole story" without their permission, as it paints them in a negative light. But, does it matter? You said flat out that the blessing is a must. If you need clarification, then you must be rethinking that stance.

Sorry if you feel that's too personal, but your marriage is everyone's business. It is the business of the families you're uniting, it is the business of the witnesses who were present, it's the business of the state, and of society at large.

Yes, it's their business that we got married. But outside that, it's no one's business who we don't want it to be. It's not anyone's business how our marriage is doing, or whether we got the blessings of our parents. It's only their business in so far as knowing we got married.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Because God said to honor your mother and your father.

Does honoring them require agreement? Consistently? With no questions? Or, even if questioning is allowed, must acquiescence ultimately follow?

 

[Aaron]

I believe that you are just responding to a situation. But there are some things which are just simply out of bounds. Implying to someone that their marriage is going to fail is one of those things. As they say, "Them's fightin' words". It's one thing to talk straight to a man, it's quite another to insult (and this is the way it was taken) his wife.

If you took that way, that's your problem. I said nothing about your wife. I also said nothing about whether or not your marriage will fail.

All I have are your words, and all I've done is contrast them to the counsel of God, and caution a fella against swallowing hook, line and sinker the incomplete testimony of one whose decision wasn't long enough ago to allow the consequences, if there are any, to come to fruition.

"Cigarettes haven't hurt me none," my chain-smoking grandmother said for decades till her laryngectomy when she was in her 70's.

And I have not given any advice. I merely answered his question. [\quote]LOL! That's giving advice, dude.

After looking at his situation from an outside perspective, and given only what we know from the thread, I'd advise him to forget about the girl. Just because I am saying that you don't NEED parent's blessings to get married, doesn't mean I don't think that you should seek it. Parents often (but not always) have more insight into the situation and can step back from emotions, think rationally, and try to find the will of God. Too often, young people get caught up in that "first love" (or second, or third) and can't think rationally. So, I don't think that getting married without the blessing is foolish. But I do think that getting married without seeking the blessing is foolish.

K

How long does it take to convince you? 10 years? 20 years? Death?

Depends on how well I know the situation. Let's see how your children fare.

Anyway, I've said my peace.

 

[Aaron]

Does honoring them require agreement? Consistently? With no questions? Or, even if questioning is allowed, must acquiescence ultimately follow?

The question I posed to one considering a marriage was how this marriage would honor the parents.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The question I posed to one considering a marriage was how this marriage would honor the parents.

So in other words, you don't want to engage in a discussion that might tend to disprove your viewpoint?

Just answer the questions, and we'll go from there.

 

[Sapper Woody]

If you took it that way, that's your problem. I said nothing about your wife. I also said nothing about whether or not your marriage will fail

So, pray tell, how else is one to take this (emphasis added)

Samson was obeying his lusts. I think that's more like what you have done, and, as far as you can see, it's worked out fine—to date.

But you see how it worked out in the end for Samson, and Hosea's marriage was not a blessing. It was a grief and a burden.

You don't see how one could infer a prediction of disaster from that? Plus, until your latest post (where you finally added "if there are any (consequences)"), you've had a whole air of the "hammer about to fall at any moment" as if those without both parents' blessings will ultimately end in destruction. And a prediction of disaster for a marriage is to insult one's wife.

Depends on how well I know the situation.

Not according to your original assertion. You said that the blessing was required, or the marriage shouldn't happen. So you shouldn't have to know the situation.

And this is nothing like cigarettes. Cigarettes have been clinically proven to contribute to several major (and minor) health issues. This is a case where it is one person's experiences versus another person's experiences.

Answering a question like this in either the affirmative or negative isn't giving advice, "Dude". It was simply giving an opinion (based on scripture and experience) to a question.

K

And this is how I know that you're not interested in a discussion or debate. Because you glossed over the areas in which we agree with a "K", instead of taking common ground and moving along from there.

You have an opinion, I have an opinion. These opinions are at odds with one another. I have given scriptural basis that I believe backs up my "God's will trumps parent's wishes" stance. You have given "Honor your father and mother", but refuse to expand upon what that means, although asked:

Does honoring them require agreement? Consistently? With no questions? Or, even if questioning is allowed, must acquiescence ultimately follow?

This question is foundational to your argument. An answer in the negative would defeat your entire stance, which is why I believe you won't answer it. Obviously, acquiescence is not necessary for honor.

As far as my experience, while I've only been married 8 years myself, I've been around long enough to be convinced by other marriages that I've seen that your assertion is wrong.

 

[Aaron]

I'm not interested in debating you. My goal was to defend the integrity of my advice to another against your bad advice.

 

[Sapper Woody]

I'm not interested in debating you. My goal was to defend the integrity of my advice to another against your bad advice.

Then defend it by answering the obvious question on which your whole argument rests: Does honor = acquiescence?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

We do not have bible evidence that Hosea's parents were against the marriage. For all we know they trusted Hosea because he was a prophet, or for all we know the Lord showed them as well that he was to marry her.

So if anyone is using that as a basis for their belief on this then it really needs to be abandoned.

I think that if Parent's are not blessing with permission to marry than that is some red flags.

If God is really in it then why would we think he wouldn't give the parents peace about it? How small is the God we believe in? It seems like it's an issue of lack of faith, and trying to justify one's own desires.

In all honesty how many times do you guys think someone's used the It's God's will excuse in order to seek self pleasure. it happens all the time, and with marriage as well I'm sure.

I remember reading somewhere, That God's will never contradicts his word.

How can you Honor your parents who have spent their whole life raising you and supporting you and loving you, by marrying outside of their blessing?

It's a matter of 2 things in my opinion 1. Pride: It's so prideful to think that the parents are wrong. (In the multitude of counselors there is safety) 2. Lust: Trying to excuse one's own desires by claiming God's will.