Emergent Church Movement

[D28guy]

Gold Dragon,

"So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, `TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.'

Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you."

Notice that Paul did not shrink back from telling them the truth about their erronious view of God. He is in essence telling them..."You are wrong, and I am going to tell you how you can change and be right."

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything,"

He is telling them again..."You are wrong!"

"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

"You are wrong...and need to change."

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,"

"You must change your mind. You are wrong now, and need to change so you can be right."

"because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

"Your false God will not do anything for you, Jesus can and will."

"Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this."

Paul knew full well that he would be mocked, sneered at, and rejected. But he didnt let than stop him, nor did he soften the message that they are wrong and he is telling them how to change and be right.

There are other places in Acts where the gospel was proclaimed and riots broke out and the ones sharing the truth feared for their lives.

He surely knew that Christ had said that as they hated Him, and they will hate christians also.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
1) Notice when and for what Paul uses condemnation and praise

D28guy, you only saw half of this. Look for the praise too.

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
2) Notice what Paul quotes from in his evangelism

You missed this completely.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
So why should I listen to him?

It is interesting you should ask that question, because the first Chapter in A Generous Orthodoxy is called Chapter 0 and is basically trying to convince folks not to listen to him and stop reading the book. Simply because McLaren understands that his message will not be recieved well by many folks and it isn't his intention to upset folks like you.

So my answer would be you shouldn't listen to him.
</font>[/QUOTE]I have to listen to him because he is having an influence and I think it's important to know what's going on and to respond, if necessary.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
And if he can't define it, what's his problem? My impression of him from interviews is that he likes ambiguity and doesn't want to define anything. He even refuses to answer some questions about doctrine. That is not a biblical approach, nor is it an approach I can respect.

It is interesting you mention McLaren's style of answering questions and saying that it isn't biblical.

I can think of at least one key person in the bible who rarely gave a straight answer to questions directed at him, often throwing questions back at his questioner, giving shocking hyperboles or responding with ambiguous analogies. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus was not ambiguous. I would hardly compare McLaren to Jesus! Just being shocking is the realm of adolescence -- am I supposed to be impressed because he is trying to shock me? It would take a lot more than that after the kind of life I've lived.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Gold Dragon
DHK, D28guy, Marcia.

I understand that it will be a long time if ever before you will ever understand what McLaren, tragic-pizza and I are talking about with respect to culture/religion and becoming a follower of Christ.

I think this is sort of insulting, to suggest that we cannot understand waht you, McLaren, and tragic-pizza are talking about. I understand it perfectly. I just don't agree because I think there are lots of category fallacies, ambiguities, and confusion, and I don't think McLaren is that intelligent from what I've seen so far. It is just not intelligent to say someone can be a Buddhist or Hindu disciple of Christ. The man doesn't know whereof he speaks.

My role here wasn't to convince you in agreeing with us, but simply giving some context to some quotes of Mr. McLaren to make sure people didn't completely misunderstand, misinterpret and abuse what he said to attack him. Feel free to disagree with our ideas.

I appreciate you trying to show us McLaren's statements in context, I really do. But as far as the original quote goes that we were discussing, it seems there is no context since McLaren did not clarify or explain it. If he said it to be shocking, well, that is no credit to him if there is no intelligent, sound message behind the shocking statements. Just being shocking gets no special commendation from me.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
1) Notice when and for what Paul uses condemnation and praise

D28guy, you only saw half of this. Look for the praise too.
</font>[/QUOTE]I've read several commentaries that do not think Paul was praising the men in Acts 17 at all, but was being sarcastic. It's actually disputed as to what he meant when he said, "I see you are religious."

http://www.rctr.org/ap9.htm
Paul begins by saying that from his point of view, (theoreo means to behold, or view as a whole) the Athenians are overwhelmingly religious, even "superstitious in everything." Religion seems to be the dominant influence in their lives. The Greek adjective deisidaimonesterous has 19 letters and must be one of the longest words in the Greek New Testament. It is not very flattering, and corresponds exactly to the Latin superstitiosus, and means extremely fearful of the gods. It was the term used for "private superstitions" or ethnic religions. It is not enough to weaken the force of this word by rendering it "very religious" as the RSV and other recent translations do. The term is decidedly not a compliment, even in 25:19, where the noun form refers precisely to a contemptible ethnic religion (the Judaism of Paul's accusers) as distinct from reverence for the state religion. The Greeks and Romans both distinguished between formal state religion and the private "superstitions" or religions of the masses, and much disgust could be shown for ethnic religions when they conflicted with official formalities. This was one of the main causes of contempt for Christians (and for the Jews before them) throughout the Empire, that they refused to bow to public idols. They were therefore occasionally accused of "atheism" or rejection of the gods. Since the Epicureans were rather cynically "agnostic" about the gods, believing them to be too high up the chain of existence to be interested in human affairs, while the Stoics believed that their philosophy was a sophisticated substitute for popular superstition, it can hardly be claimed that Paul's opening gambit was a good example of bridge-building! On the contrary, he puts his finger on a well-known sore spot straightaway -- that the pagan philosophers had failed to diminish the abuses of idolatry in Greece, and their culture was still wholly given over to it, as verse 16 indicates. Paul was enraged by its obvious dominance.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Posted by Gold Dragon
DHK, D28guy, Marcia.

I understand that it will be a long time if ever before you will ever understand what McLaren, tragic-pizza and I are talking about with respect to culture/religion and becoming a follower of Christ.

I think this is sort of insulting, to suggest that we cannot understand waht you, McLaren, and tragic-pizza are talking about. I understand it perfectly. I just don't agree because I think there are lots of category fallacies, ambiguities, and confusion, and I don't think McLaren is that intelligent from what I've seen so far. It is just not intelligent to say someone can be a Buddhist or Hindu disciple of Christ. The man doesn't know whereof he speaks.</font>

I sincerely apologize for offending you, DHK and D28guy. That was a very poor choice of words on my part and it was not my intention to say that you were not intellectually capable of comprehending what we are talking about.

I should rephrase to say

I understand that it will be a long time if ever before you will ever agree with what McLaren, tragic-pizza and I are talking about with respect to culture/religion and becoming a follower of Christ.

Terribly sorry.

 

[D28guy]

Gold Dragon,

You said...

I should rephrase to say

I understand that it will be a long time if ever before you will ever agree with what McLaren, tragic-pizza and I are talking about with respect to culture/religion and becoming a follower of Christ.

I pretty much took your original statement to mean what you posted there. I personally wasnt offended, but I can see how someone could take it the other way as well.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

I'm not a Baptist so I dont really know what all of you believe.

But for a long time now there has been a movement to bring all Christian Churches together into one.

Rv:17:13: These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The Catholic Church has something call "Inculturation" and "Acculturation". Malachi Martin explains Inculturation like this:

"The idea was to adapt so severely to the culture of the alien (one who was not a catholic)that the missionary would aquire the mind of that culture, and would revamp both doctrine and moral practice to fit that alien culture."

This actually means that the Jeuit would try to be as much like the people in the particular church or group that he was seeking to win over to his side as he could, and all the while, hw would be sneaking in catholic doctrines little by little until that church became Catholic in their thinking without even realizing the change. This is one of the tactics that the Jesuits are notorious for.

And then there is another tactic that the Roman Catholic Church uses called "Acculturation". This mean to adapt the practices of your own church -such as your worship format- to the practices of the different cultures that you are seeking to win over to Catholicism.

In this way, they believe, people will begin to feel more "comfortable" with the Catholic Church and perhaps eventually come over to it. For instance, Malachi Martin tells of how in some Catholic gatherings they now serve communion wine in paper cups and have coffee afterwards for socializing. Their bands play blues music- using trombones, kazoos, saxaphones and top it off with drumsto add a thythm foundation. Malachi Martin,The Encounter.


There has been for quite a time now, something called the "Celebration" Movement, which has come into many Chirstian Churhes, and the idea is to have a "traditional" church service, and then also have a "celebration" service where everybody claps and sways and generally acts like Pentecostals. Few know that this movement originated in the Catholic Church. And even fewer know that this originated even before that from witchcraft.

In witchcraft, EVERYTHING is called a "celebration of life". (a term you hear much in Christian Churches now). The reason they regard every thing a celebration is because they are pantheistic in their beliefs and believe God is IN everything... Its where the Catholic Church got its idea of "community". You can go to my website at http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org and click on the Catholic button and read a little about this pantheism in the catholic church... which is just spiritualism.

The Catholics had a Jesuit named Teilhard de Chardin and during the Vatican II they went by Teiljard's teachings of "spiritual evolution". This means that everything in the world is "god" (a pantheistic force in all things) and that eventually everything is now going back into "god"... all humanity is "God".. and will evolve into "oneness" or otherwise known as "The Omega Christ".

At any rate, what we are seeing now is... Roman Catholicism not only joining hands with Protestantism but also with Spiritualism and the world. (their religion has always been of pagan origin but now they are making strides towards making a big deal of publically accepting things like Islam and everything under the sun.

This is one major way that they will all become "of one mind". Rv:17:13: These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Unfortunately, too many Protestants have no real idea what's going on and they view the whole thing as "being loving" verses "being like a Pharisee and thinking you are better than other religions".

The idea is that true Biblical Faith is being watered down bit by bit till it becomes more and more difficult to distinguish a Christian from a worldly person, and not only that but more and more difficult to distinguish a Protestant from a Catholic.

One major thing they are doing is to water down the judgment of God... and trying to make Him seem wishy washy... claiming He wont destroy those who persist in sin. You see, if God does destroy the sinner then out of all the religions out there SOMEBODY must be wrong... or else why would God punish anybody or judge them? Thus, in order to have this ecumenical movement they must make like God doesnt care what you believe... as long as you "love" Him.

Ezek:33:31: And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

Well anyway I guess I have rambled on enough for now. You may have already known about all this that I just said but just in case you didnt I thought I'd tell you.. bye

Claudia Thompson

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.christiangraphics.org

 

[Claudia_T]

I just want to add something to my last message. I forgot to say that the catholic belief is that celebration means everybody doing the same thing together... thats what Thomas Merton the Monk says. You see if everybody is doing the same thing together as one... it must be "God" flowing through everyone, so they must infiltrate the Protestant Churches with this celebration movement so we are all doing the same thing "as one". Celebration movement uses lots of music, drums, and other "let it all hang out" type stuff.

...along with celebration is something called NLP or Neuro Linguistic programming, which in reality is just hypnosis with a new face... but I have to go so maybe sometime later I will come back and say a little something about it, although I dont even know if anyone ever reads what I say in here anyway LOL. I usually am busy doing all sorts of stuff so I cant stay very long.

Im going to add a whole bunch of articles to my website in the furture... and I'll say things about all of this and give all the actual quotes, I was absolutely amazed and astounded when I did months and months of research on all of this. Things just all started fitting together in my mind..

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
The Catholic Church has something call "Inculturation" and "Acculturation". Malachi Martin explains Inculturation like this:

"The idea was to adapt so severely to the culture of the alien (one who was not a catholic)that the missionary would aquire the mind of that culture, and would revamp both doctrine and moral practice to fit that alien culture."

This actually means that the Jeuit would try to be as much like the people in the particular church or group that he was seeking to win over to his side as he could, and all the while, hw would be sneaking in catholic doctrines little by little until that church became Catholic in their thinking without even realizing the change. This is one of the tactics that the Jesuits are notorious for.

Redemptoris Missio : CHAPTER V - THE PATHS OF MISSION

Incarnating the Gospel in Peoples' Culture

52. As she carries out missionary activity among the nations, the Church encounters different cultures and becomes involved in the process of inculturation. The need for such involvement has marked the Church's pilgrimage throughout her history, but today it is particularly urgent.

The process of the Church's insertion into peoples' cultures is a lengthy one. It is not a matter of purely external adaptation, for inculturation "means the intimate transformation of authentic cultural values through their integration in Christianity and the insertion of Christianity in the various human cultures."85 The process is thus a profound and all-embracing one, which involves the Christian message and also the Church's reflection and practice. But at the same time it is a difficult process, for it must in no way compromise the distinctiveness and integrity of the Christian faith.

Through inculturation the Church makes the Gospel incarnate in different cultures and at the same time introduces peoples, together with their cultures, into her own community.86 She transmits to them her own values, at the same time taking the good elements that already exist in them and renewing them from within.87 Through inculturation the Church, for her part, becomes a more intelligible sign of what she is, and a more effective instrument of mission.

Thanks to this action within the local churches, the universal Church herself is enriched with forms of expression and values in the various sectors of Christian life, such as evangelization, worship, theology and charitable works. She comes to know and to express better the mystery of Christ, all the while being motivated to continual renewal. During my pastoral visits to the young churches I have repeatedly dealt with these themes, which are present in the Council and the subsequent Magisterium.88

Inculturation is a slow journey which accompanies the whole of missionary life. It involves those working in the Church's mission ad gentes, the Christian communities as they develop, and the bishops, who have the task of providing discernment and encouragement for its implementation.89

....

 

[Claudia_T]

A Catholic priest named Andrew Greeley tells a story of how things have changed for the Catholic Church, for the purpose of enlarging their congregations:

"In many new Catholic churches , statues, the stations, and the stained glass windows have either been swept away or reduced to diagrams or abstractions that would not offend even the most fundamental Protestant. Reverence and awe have been replaced by often cloying informality; solemnity by 'letting it all hang out' manners. Great music has been replaced by bad psuedo-folk" music... As a part of the final acculturation into American life, it became appropriate to abandon the whole mess, to... eliminate the mysteries and medals, the invocations and the pieties, the blessings and the rosaries, the May crownings and the mumbo jumbo." How to Save the Catholic Church, pg 70,71

And you see now in some Protestant churches they are doing the stations of the cross, and even using rosaries... etc.


Which is like I said, acculturation and inculturation. And all of these various things you are witnessing are part of the same thing... for the ecumenical movement. There is a reason behind all this "nicey nicey" stuff coming from the Catholic church to protestants and other religions. You should read these 2 chapters:

http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc35.html
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc36.html

--------

Claudia Thompson

 

[Claudia_T]

Tragic Pizza,

You said to the other guy that we should save people by love and not fear of hell. I agree to a certain extent, after all, the Bible does say, Rom:2:4: "knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

But the Bible ALSO says this:

Jude 1:
22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

so I would say we must do BOTH THINGS... love and fear, for didnt Jesus use fear at times? its just a reality check, of sorts:


Jn:15:6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Mt:3:10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mt:13:40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

You can go read Revelation 14:6-12 about the Mark of the Beast and you know... that is using fear in a big way, dont you agree?

But I do think many churches use the fear factor too much sometimes...


----------
Claudia Thompson

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.christiangraphics.org

 

[Claudia_T]

Tragic Pizza,

But then again, just so nobody gets the idea that I support the idea of an eternally burning Hell, I DONT.



Actually I dont know which is worse, the false idea that God doesnt punish anyone and there isnt any Hell at all or the false idea that God tortures people in Hell eternally... but the latter came from the Catholic Church as well. So I think that either way, the devil is having his way, if he can get unbelievers to view God with hatred because they think He tortures people forever and ever throughout eternity or else as some kind of a santa claus who doesnt punish people at all.

you can read the truth about Hell here if you'd like:
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/hellfire.htm


Claudia

 

[Marcia]

Gold Dragon, thanks for your apology!

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
There has been for quite a time now, something called the "Celebration" Movement, which has come into many Chirstian Churhes, and the idea is to have a "traditional" church service, and then also have a "celebration" service where everybody claps and sways and generally acts like Pentecostals. Few know that this movement originated in the Catholic Church. And even fewer know that this originated even before that from witchcraft.

In witchcraft, EVERYTHING is called a "celebration of life". (a term you hear much in Christian Churches now). The reason they regard every thing a celebration is because they are pantheistic in their beliefs and believe God is IN everything... Its where the Catholic Church got its idea of "community". You can go to my website at http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org and click on the Catholic button and read a little about this pantheism in the catholic church... which is just spiritualism.

I'm trying to find out more information about this. Are you simply referring to the Charismatic movement in the Catholic church? If so, I'm not sure how witchcraft and pantheism are related to the movement which was influenced primarily by the Pentecostal movement of the early 1900s.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
The Catholics had a Jesuit named Teilhard de Chardin and during the Vatican II they went by Teiljard's teachings of "spiritual evolution". This means that everything in the world is "god" (a pantheistic force in all things) and that eventually everything is now going back into "god"... all humanity is "God".. and will evolve into "oneness" or otherwise known as "The Omega Christ".

Wikipedia - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (May 1, 1881 – April 10, 1955) was a Jesuit paleontologist and philosopher involved in popularising the concept of the noosphere and the Omega Point, and was present at the discovery of Peking Man.

Wikipedia - Spiritual Evolution

Spiritual evolution is the philosophical/theological idea that nature and human beings and/or human culture evolve along a predetermined pattern or ascent, or in accordance with certain pre-determined potentials.

Within this broad definition, theories of spiritual evolution are very diverse. They may be cosmological (describing existence at large), personal (describing the development of the individual), or both. They can be holistic (holding that higher realities emerge from and are not reducable to the lower), idealist (holding that reality is primarily mental or spiritual) or nondual (holding that there is no ultimate distinction between mental and physical reality). All of them can be considered to be teleological to a greater or lesser degree.

...

Teilhard de Chardin

Teilhard, who was a Jesuit Paleontologist who played an important role in the discovery of Peking Man, presented a teleological view of planetary and cosmic evolution, according to which the formation of atoms, molecules and inanimate matter is followed by the development of the biosphere and organic evolution, then the appearance of man and the noosphere as the total envcelope of human thought. According to Teilhard evolution does not cease here but continues on to its culmination and unification in the Omega Point, which he identifies with Christ.

Wikipedia - Omega Point

Omega Point is a term created by Tulane University professor of mathematics Frank J. Tipler to describe a hypothetical cosmological scenario in the far future of the Universe. According to the Omega Point Theory, as the Universe comes to an end in a Big Crunch, the computational capacity of the Universe is capable of increasing at a sufficient rate that this computation rate is accelerating exponentially faster than time runs out. In principle, a simulation run on this Universe-computer can thus continue forever in its own terms, even though the external Universe lasts only a finite time. This theory assumes that certain cosmological variables prove that the universe will eventually contract, and that there will be intelligent civilizations in existence at the appropriate time to exploit the computational capacity of such an environment.

Tipler identifies this asymptotic state of infinite information capacity with God. The implication of this theory for present day humans is that this ultimate cosmic computer will essentially be able to resurrect everyone who has ever lived, by recreating all possible quantum brain states within the master simulation. This would be a Matrix-like simulated reality, except without the necessity for physical bodies in "reality". From the perspective of the inhabitant, the Omega Point represents an infinite duration afterlife, which could take any imaginable form due to its virtual nature.

Some pretty interesting theory and some pretty out-there ideas. I'd be interested in seeing how these ideas influenced Vatican II or the Catholic church in any way, since they seem very abstract and theoretical at this point in time.

 

[Claudia_T]

I forgot to say something else. Like I said, the doctrine of eternal torment in hell came from the Roman Catholic church. Protestants never taught that. The Bible doesnt teach it (you can read the references I gave in my other posts). And the false teaching of man having an immortal soul and therefore goes straight to heaven when he dies or to hell... is built upon the same foundation as the doctrine of eternal torment (living forever, but this time, in hell). You only have life in Christ and only have eternal life if you are saved. and that doesnt happen till the second coming of Christ: I Cor. 15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The wicked do not get to have eternal life (in hell). They are destroyed in hell. What happens when you die and what happens in hell are two doctrines intimately connected. The Roman Cathoilic version (also involving purgatory and talking to dead saints who supposedly are now in heaven) and eternal torment are a "package".

Anyway its good some of you are fighting for the idea of warning people about hellfire... but on the other hand, part of your beliefs are wrong and not Protestant at all. The false Sunday Sabbath also came from Rome.

The theory of the immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that Rome, borrowing from paganism, incorporated into the religion of Christendom. Martin Luther classed it with the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255. Commenting on the words of Solomon in Ecclesiastes, that the dead know not anything, the Reformer says: "Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152.


"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.

Thats why Gods is calling His people to come out of Babylon and its false teachings.


Revelation 14:6-12
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
(that was a quote right out of the 4th commandment, the seventh day sabbath commandment, by the way)

8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rv:18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

I love you all, please take time to go to my site http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org and click on the "who is the antichrist?" link and the "National Sunday Law" book link on my home page.

I just hate seeing you defending the eternal torment idea... when it isnt true. I know you mean well though.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:

I just hate seeing you defending the eternal torment idea... when it isnt true. I know you mean well though.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I would rather believe the Bible which does not lie. I would suggest that you do the same.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

I agree with DHK! The scripture does not lie. It says what it says, and we should believe it!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[av1611jim]

Claudia;
Why are you so hung up on the Law, (you ARE SDA) yet you ignore the strict interpretation of this passage?
Ex 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Your website has MANY images of "angels" and "Jesus". Since you do not know what an angel looks like, nor what Jesus looks like, aren't you just imitating Cahtolics? (The Greek Orthodox use PICTURES instead of statues)

Kinda contradictory isn't it?

In HIS service;
Jim