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Emergent Church Movement

tragic_pizza

New Member
Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Tragic Pizza,

You said to the other guy that we should save people by love and not fear of hell. I agree to a certain extent, after all, the Bible does say, Rom:2:4: "knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

But the Bible ALSO says this:

Jude 1:
22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

so I would say we must do BOTH THINGS... love and fear, for didnt Jesus use fear at times? its just a reality check, of sorts:


Jn:15:6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Mt:3:10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mt:13:40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

You can go read Revelation 14:6-12 about the Mark of the Beast and you know... that is using fear in a big way, dont you agree?

But I do think many churches use the fear factor too much sometimes...
The word for "fear" in that first Scripture means to use caution on our won part, not that we should, in and of ourselves, strike the fear of God into people's hearts. The Holy Spirit is quite able to do that Himself.

Please understand that I do not advocate a one-sided message of tulips and puppies. Rather, I recoil from this lust so many Christians have for the "Don't you know you're going to Hell" opening line for "evangelism." Eternal judgement is a reality (and one can only interpret the "Lake of Fire" in Revelation in terms of an eternal punishment), and thus cannot be ignored.

It's likely a problem that we Evangelicals are far too interested in fast-tracking the Gospel message into a five-minute Romans Road or Four Spiritual Laws presentation, with little interest in befriending or even getting to know lost people.

Yet this is exactly why we must approach evangelism fearfully and carefully: Christ's ultimate example was that, in order to save you and I, He became like us. This isn't to say, for example, I'm going to go get my earlobes gauged and begin wearing black lipstick in order to evangelize Goths (others have done that with success); yet I am going to spend time with kids who are Goth in order to better relate the life-changing message of the Gospel. I'm going to spend time with athiests, agnostics, Pagans and Wiccans, not to "be cool" or adopt their beliefs, but that, through my patient friendship, these sad and hardened people might see Christ and respond.

Trust me: evey one of these people has heard about Hell. Every one of them is convinced that every Christian on earth has condemned them to Hell. What they don't hear enough of is the voice of hope: that while eternal punishment is a reality, Jesus came to offer us a path away from Hell, and into eternal, joyful, abundant life.
 

D28guy

New Member
tragic pizza.

"It's likely a problem that we Evangelicals are far too interested in fast-tracking the Gospel message into a five-minute Romans Road or Four Spiritual Laws presentation, with little interest in befriending or even getting to know lost people."
I believe the problem you are talking about is so miniscule that its hardly worthy mentioning. I was born again in 1982 and can not think of one single persom whom I have have personally know who is like that.

The only people who would be that way would be the most hardend and "seperate from the world" minded "fundamentalist" imaginable.

As I said, I havent personally know anyone like that for 23 years now. And I have known people of just about any denomination imaginable.

God bless,

Mike
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I hope you're right, Mike.

But then I look at many of the conversations I have here and I doubt it.
There is a certain school, and they are a minority, that teach an easy-believism type of gospel. One of their graduates came up here in the early 70's. He had many "professions" but very few of them ever came to church. A profession does not equal a possession, i.e., just because some says a prayer or repeats one, doesn't mean he is sincere about trusting Christ as Saviour. Because the young man was not able to build a "super-church" in the cold north, he got discouraged after a couple of years and returned to the U.S. However the church did continue with the few people that (in spite of the easy-believism tactics), actually did believe, came to Christ, were baptized, and formed a church of a dozen members or so. You are right their are many false professions.
Mike is also right. Those type of preachers/evangelists are in the minority.

I was in the Catholic Church for 20 years and not once heard the gospel. When I did hear from another student on the University Campus it was the first time that I ever heard the gospel message. Perhaps my case is unusual, in that the first time I ever heard the gospel, I got saved. There was no easy believism there. The Lord got hold of my heart and I have never been the same since. I don't doubt my salvation. I know that if I were to die right now I would go straight to Heaven. My sins have all been forgiven by the blood of the Lamb.
DHK

[ April 11, 2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by DHK:
I was in the Catholic Church for 20 years and not once heard the gospel. When I did hear from another student on the University Campus it was the first time that I ever heard the gospel message. Perhaps my case is unusual, in that the first time I ever heard the gospel, I got saved. There was no easy believism there. The Lord got hold of my heart and I have never been the same since. I don't doubt my salvation. I know that if I were to die right now I would go straight to Heaven. My sins have all been forgiven by the blood of the Lamb.
DHK
Thanks for that sharing DHK and praise God for that university student and the way God has transformed and used you.
thumbs.gif
 

tragic_pizza

New Member
DHK, I appreciate your testimony, but I weasn't talking about "easy believism." In light of what you and Mike shared, though, I'm going to keep my peace for now and make sure I know what I'm trying to say.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (May 1, 1881 – April 10, 1955) was a Jesuit paleontologist and philosopher involved in popularising the concept of the noosphere and the Omega Point, and was present at the discovery of Peking Man.
There are many people who are officially Christian who have mystical New Age or Eastern views, and de Chardin is one of them. His views were a forerunner of New Age thought. These people influenced the New Age and are quoted by New Agers. I remember reading stuff by him and about him when I was first getting more deeply involved in New Age beliefs in the mid-70's. Others are Matthew Fox, an Episcopal priest (former Catholic, still alive),Agnes Sanford (Episcopal, deceased), Basil Pennington and Thomas Keating (both Catholics, alive), and Thomas Merton (Catholic monk, deceased).

They use Christian terms but mean different things by them, or infuse/merge them with Eastern spirituality. This is one of the hallmarks of the New Age and it's why so many Christians don't recognize it.

The French Jesuit Pere Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955) was one of the most well-known theologians of the 20th century. However, his writings were condemned several times by the Holy See. In this essay I shall give a list of the various admonitions received by this author, whose books still enjoy wide circulation.

De Chardin, who attempted to create a fusion of Christianity and evolutionary theory , taught not so much Catholicism as New Age hinduism, as his teachings were to all in intents and purposes, pantheism (the belief that God is everything). De Chardin was a New Ager, possibly one of the first Catholic clerics to fall into this error, and certainly the most influential. Clearly this view is in no way compatible with Catholic doctrine, and the history of his disputes with Rome bears this out.
From
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/newage/dechardin.html
I have a quote here, but keep in mind I knew about him having New Age type views 30 yrs. ago.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (May 1, 1881 – April 10, 1955) was a Jesuit paleontologist and philosopher involved in popularising the concept of the noosphere and the Omega Point, and was present at the discovery of Peking Man.
There are many people who are officially Christian who have mystical New Age or Eastern views, and de Chardin is one of them. His views were a forerunner of New Age thought. These people influenced the New Age and are quoted by New Agers. I remember reading stuff by him and about him when I was first getting more deeply involved in New Age beliefs in the mid-70's. Others are Matthew Fox, an Episcopal priest (former Catholic, still alive),Agnes Sanford (Episcopal, deceased), Basil Pennington and Thomas Keating (both Catholics, alive), and Thomas Merton (Catholic monk, deceased).

They use Christian terms but mean different things by them, or infuse/merge them with Eastern spirituality. This is one of the hallmarks of the New Age and it's why so many Christians don't recognize it.
 

Marcia

Active Member
The French Jesuit Pere Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955) was one of the most well-known theologians of the 20th century. However, his writings were condemned several times by the Holy See. In this essay I shall give a list of the various admonitions received by this author, whose books still enjoy wide circulation.

De Chardin, who attempted to create a fusion of Christianity and evolutionary theory , taught not so much Catholicism as New Age hinduism, as his teachings were to all in intents and purposes, pantheism (the belief that God is everything). De Chardin was a New Ager, possibly one of the first Catholic clerics to fall into this error, and certainly the most influential. Clearly this view is in no way compatible with Catholic doctrine, and the history of his disputes with Rome bears this out.
From
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/newage/dechardin.html
I have a couple of quotes here, but keep in mind I knew about him having New Age type views 30 yrs. ago.
 

Marcia

Active Member
More on de Chardin:
Teilhard (1881-1955) taught that humanity is evolving into another form, and that "all that arises; converges". Humanity, he said, is converging toward an Omega point, at which collective consciousness will find a new unity. According to Teilhard, Christ is the force behind a collective "Christ consciousness" of Man, which will culminate in the emergence of a "Cosmic Christ" - the true parousia. Teilhard: "The world (its value, its infallibility and its goodness) - that, when all is said and done, is the first, the last, and the only thing in which I believe. It is by this faith that I live. And it is to this faith, I feel, that at the moment of death, rising above all doubts, I shall surrender myself." Christianity and Evolution

Teilhard essentially taught that the world itself was being transubstantiated into Christ. In 1947 Teilhard said, "Very definitely there was no Adam and no Eve and no Original Sin." And In 1954 Teilhard wrote to a friend, "I am essentially pantheist in my thinking and in my temperament". Pantheism is the view that equates God with the forces and laws of nature, the worship of nature, i.e. the world.
From
http://www.trosch.org/for/teilhard-keene99l.htm
Matthew Fox has a book, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ , which seems to have been influenced by de Chardin.
 

D28guy

New Member
I responded to this...

"It's likely a problem that we Evangelicals are far too interested in fast-tracking the Gospel message into a five-minute Romans Road or Four Spiritual Laws presentation, with little interest in befriending or even getting to know lost people.
And said...

I believe the problem you are talking about is so miniscule that its hardly worthy mentioning. I was born again in 1982 and can not think of one single person whom I have have personally know who is like that.

The only people who would be that way would be the most hardend and "seperate from the world" minded "fundamentalist" imaginable.
I want to clarify. I didnt mean that using a tract...such as the "Romans Road" or "4 Spiritual Laws" ones...is inappropriate. Those sort of tools are just excellant and are many times very beneficial.

What I meant was evangeliclas who show no concern for lost people, wont befriend them, wont follow up the presentation, wont help lost people with food, clothing, etc if their is a need. All the evangelicals I have ever known personally are not like that. They join bowling leagues with lost people, befriend co-workers who are lost, show concern for lost people in a practical way...helping them with food or some other dire need, etc.

Also, evangelicals are generally very good about encouraging new believers to by all means plug into a healthy christian fellowship if they do recieve Christ through a gospel presentation.

Mike
 

Marcia

Active Member
Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Your point, Marcia, would be... ?
I think I forgot now, ;) but someone posted something about Teilhard de Chardin, I thought approvingly - though I could be wrong, and I just thought it would be informative to point out de Chardin's unbiblical thinking.

I am immersed in writing a seminary research paper for my OT2 class and only come here now and then, so cannot follow discussions that closely. I've had supper at midnight the past 3 or 4 nights and tonight it looks the same. It's almost 11:30 now and I have not eaten. :(
 

tragic_pizza

New Member
Seminary is tough, so they tell me. Too bad in your current denomination you're limited as to how much you can do, unless you;re going to be a missionary.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Seminary is tough, so they tell me. Too bad in your current denomination you're limited as to how much you can do, unless you;re going to be a missionary.
I'm not limited by my denomination! I believe that God has different roles for men and women. I desire the role that God has called me into - I've been a full-time missionary on support since May, 1998, and part-time since '94.

Althought technically I am a missionary, I have a ministry called CANA/Christian Answers for the New Age. I speak around the country (in conservative churches!), on radio (was on a radio show today, in fact), write, and do outreach.
 
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