T
TaterTot
Guest
My main problem is that in my "experience", the experience is sometimes sought after more than the reason for that experience. If you dont know what I am talking about, then that is a good thing.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Emotions in Worship
- Thread starter LarryN
- Start date
My problem with CCM has nothing to do with emotion. I think that when we turn to music that sounds like "the world" we fail to set ourselves apart. While I don't have a real problem with any music on the surface, I do think we're missing the point a little when we decide that we have to sound like a rock concert and not a church. If I were to go to a rock concert (which I wouldn't do, but wouldn't think twice if you did) I wouldn't expect a sermon. When I go to church, I don't expect a concert to break out.
I guess I view it as CCM is meant for us to enjoy. Praise music isn't about our enjoyment, it is about doing something for God.
I guess I view it as CCM is meant for us to enjoy. Praise music isn't about our enjoyment, it is about doing something for God.
Victory in Jesus
New Member
I missed something. What is CCM?
I'm not against emotions. I'm just against showing them. {giggle....just kidding)
Seriously, I'm all for people showing their emotions. Our churches are so dead sometimes that I have to believe Baptists will be the first to rise when Christ comes back.
We sing the hymns in church so often that I look around and watch people singing "Victory in Jesus" and ... Man! ...how about the last verse of "Amazing Grace"?...people are singing those songs like their cat just died. We get so mechanical in our worship that we don't take time to think about the meanings of these songs.
We were walking along the edge of Hell and Jesus held out his hand and gave us the opportunity to take Him by the hand and follow Him! How can we NOT get emotional over things like that?? It's great that we can show emotions.
Our church usually has the ushers come up and stand around the communion table and wait until the chior finishes singing and then we pray and they take up the offering. One usher got so excited over the music that he just let out whooping and hollering after the song was finished. I thought they were going to have to tie the guy up. LOL!
Our pastor doesn't encourage emotions and he doesn't discourage them. He's very emotional himself, actually. He doesn't whoop and holler, but he cries a lot...for people who are unsaved that we've been praying over...for people in our church who are sick. He doesn't act pompous. He has a genuine concern for others.
I'm sitting here thinking about the church we're members of now, and the church we left. The pastor at THAT church went to a member who "got overly excited" and asked her to sit in the back if she couldn't control her emotions. I wonder if the reason some pastors don't want emotional outbursts in their service is because they're control freaks, and they're afraid they'll lose control...or that the pastors themselves won't get all the attention? Just a thought.
The only thing I have a problem with concerning emotion is that we shouldn't make decisions based on emotion alone. Emotions are great motivators, but they shouldn't be our only resource of motivation. Some people are happy all the time, but what about those who battle depression? Should they be looked down on and labled ungodly for NOT smiling while singing these great songs? Shouldn't they at least be credited for SINGING even though they don't feel like it? Should we only pray when we feel like praying?
God has certainly blessed us, no matter what struggles we're going through right now. He's given us much more than we ever deserved. We have every reason to give Him the honor and glory, to be happy and show others we're happy. We'll bring more people to the Lord if we're happy than if we're walking around grumpy and sad.
But our decisions should be based on God's will, and we can only know what God wants for us when we have devotions, read God's word, pray constantly...stay close to the Lord...sin...whether we're happy or not. We can't put our trust in our feelings. We can only put our trust in the Lord. That's what I'm trying to say.
What about people who are bipolar?...or battle major depression?...or general anxiety disorder? Should someone with anxiety decide against the mission field because they're afraid something bad will happen to them? Should a person in the manic phase of bipolar decide to surrender his/her life to the mission field?
Emotions are great (when they're the happy ones), but they can't be the foundation of our decisions. I love being happy and I love showing others I'm happy and why I'm happy when I'm happy. But when I'm not happy, happy people can be so annoying. LOL!
I'm not against emotions. I'm just against showing them. {giggle....just kidding)
Seriously, I'm all for people showing their emotions. Our churches are so dead sometimes that I have to believe Baptists will be the first to rise when Christ comes back.
We sing the hymns in church so often that I look around and watch people singing "Victory in Jesus" and ... Man! ...how about the last verse of "Amazing Grace"?...people are singing those songs like their cat just died. We get so mechanical in our worship that we don't take time to think about the meanings of these songs.
We were walking along the edge of Hell and Jesus held out his hand and gave us the opportunity to take Him by the hand and follow Him! How can we NOT get emotional over things like that?? It's great that we can show emotions.
Our church usually has the ushers come up and stand around the communion table and wait until the chior finishes singing and then we pray and they take up the offering. One usher got so excited over the music that he just let out whooping and hollering after the song was finished. I thought they were going to have to tie the guy up. LOL!
Our pastor doesn't encourage emotions and he doesn't discourage them. He's very emotional himself, actually. He doesn't whoop and holler, but he cries a lot...for people who are unsaved that we've been praying over...for people in our church who are sick. He doesn't act pompous. He has a genuine concern for others.
I'm sitting here thinking about the church we're members of now, and the church we left. The pastor at THAT church went to a member who "got overly excited" and asked her to sit in the back if she couldn't control her emotions. I wonder if the reason some pastors don't want emotional outbursts in their service is because they're control freaks, and they're afraid they'll lose control...or that the pastors themselves won't get all the attention? Just a thought.
The only thing I have a problem with concerning emotion is that we shouldn't make decisions based on emotion alone. Emotions are great motivators, but they shouldn't be our only resource of motivation. Some people are happy all the time, but what about those who battle depression? Should they be looked down on and labled ungodly for NOT smiling while singing these great songs? Shouldn't they at least be credited for SINGING even though they don't feel like it? Should we only pray when we feel like praying?
God has certainly blessed us, no matter what struggles we're going through right now. He's given us much more than we ever deserved. We have every reason to give Him the honor and glory, to be happy and show others we're happy. We'll bring more people to the Lord if we're happy than if we're walking around grumpy and sad.
But our decisions should be based on God's will, and we can only know what God wants for us when we have devotions, read God's word, pray constantly...stay close to the Lord...sin...whether we're happy or not. We can't put our trust in our feelings. We can only put our trust in the Lord. That's what I'm trying to say.
What about people who are bipolar?...or battle major depression?...or general anxiety disorder? Should someone with anxiety decide against the mission field because they're afraid something bad will happen to them? Should a person in the manic phase of bipolar decide to surrender his/her life to the mission field?
Emotions are great (when they're the happy ones), but they can't be the foundation of our decisions. I love being happy and I love showing others I'm happy and why I'm happy when I'm happy. But when I'm not happy, happy people can be so annoying. LOL!
"CCM" is a commonly used abbreviation for "Contemporary Christian Music".
Getting back to my OP, my primary question has to do with what I see as an apparent dichotomy that exists in some Baptist circles. Oftentimes the groups who, in my estimation, critique CCM/P&W music as appealing mostly or strictly to people's emotions (and therefore eschew it in favor of tradional worship music, which is presumably viewed as being more "reverant" or "God-honoring") are the groups which exhibit the most emotional displays in their preaching. It seems that it's O.K. for the preacher to get "fired-up", but not musicians or singers.
That dichotomy exists in the reverse, also. Emotions are reactions and, as such, should always follow and never lead. Emotions are God given but He did not give them to us as a target but as a reward, or warning, or indicator for situations in our lives. If you aim at the target of emotions then you miss the target of the actions that result in emotions. Pick your target.
That's a valid point. I can think of some IFB churches I know which have what some might call "boisterous" music- but then relatively staid, sedate, formal preaching in their services.
Perhaps a better question on my part is "Why is it that "emotion" in some worship services seems to be an "either/or" (in whatever combination)?"
Who decides if a piece of music sounds like "the world" or not? You? Me? Handel's Messiah, when written, sounded like the classical era music of "the world" of the day. Many earlier hymns sounded like the baroque music of the world of its day. Many of the 18th century hymns and choruses that we enjoy sounded like the music of the world of its day.
The arguement of CCM being bad because it sounds like music of "the world" is valid only to those who are musically ignorant.
Is it not interesting that C.H. Spurgeon would not allow so much as an organ to be played in his church, because he didn't want his congregation to be distracted in any way from their focus on Christ their Saviour during a time of worship?
It can be demonstrated with a fair amount of accuracy that the early church did not use any musical instruments at all.
DHK
It can be demonstrated with a fair amount of accuracy that the early church did not use any musical instruments at all.
DHK
T
TaterTot
Guest
Man looks on the outward experience.
God looks on the heart.
How can you know the heart of a worshiper? </font>[/QUOTE]Atestring, you are correct, only God knows the true heart of a worshipper. However, I have been in services where the leader tells everyone to raise their hands and sway to the music. Not that that is wrong in and of itself, but if emotions are manipulated, I see danger there. Once after a youth conference, I talked to my kids about what had happened. Even non-saved teenagers were doing this and they told me that later, they did it because they were told to. They were being taught how to have an experience, in my opinion.
Man looks on the outward experience.
God looks on the heart.
How can you know the heart of a worshiper? </font>[/QUOTE]Atestring, you are correct, only God knows the true heart of a worshipper. However, I have been in services where the leader tells everyone to raise their hands and sway to the music. Not that that is wrong in and of itself, but if emotions are manipulated, I see danger there. Once after a youth conference, I talked to my kids about what had happened. Even non-saved teenagers were doing this and they told me that later, they did it because they were told to. They were being taught how to have an experience, in my opinion. </font>[/QUOTE]Did this experience harm anyone?
What kind of danger are you talking about?
The Bible says : let everything that hath breath praise "THE LORD"
Do you tell them that when they go to ball games and raise their hands and scream that this could be dangerous?
After all we all worship. Wheither it is sports or God?
I know many kids that were told not to raise their hands in Church to worship God and would not have been allowed to sway,that go to rock concerts and raise their hands and sway,and worship whoever they are worshipping.
[ July 08, 2005, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: atestring ]
T
TaterTot
Guest
Yes, worship is an experience. I am not disagreeing with that. If its only in form, then its not worship. Worship certainly can include the emotions, but it also includes the intellect. Worship isnt raised hands and swaying. It may look like worship, and it very well could BE worship. I am just saying we should be careful that we aren't chasing an experience rather than meeting with God.
A strong example of this point is the SALVATION experience.
Literally, emotion wise, from the ridiculous to the sublime!
T
TaterTot
Guest
True, but as a non-Christian, do you think one can truly understand worship? I didnt when I wasnt saved.
Tator,
God Created our emotions. Worship is neither emotions alone nor intellect alone. God is a spirit annd those who worship Him "MUST" worship Him in spirit and truth.
Traditions usually dictate the style that a person accepts as the standard of worship. That however goes against God's word since we are to Worship God who is a Spirit, in Spirit and Truth.
Traditions "can" become a form of godliness that denies the Power of God a\when this happens the traditions of man make the word of God af no effect. That is why we are admonished to turn away from a form of godliness that denies the power of God.
It is interesting that when worship goes outside the realm of ones traditions that assumptions are made that we had better be careful about chasing an experience. I believe that God is not just an Academic issue but that God gives us experiences . Traditions try to minimize this.
I have in my life time (I'm 47) seen people deny the idea of an experience with God only to see their Children to seek experiences outside of the realm of What God has for them. God made us to Experience Him. When i was Born again it was an experience. It was the greadtest experience I have ever had. It is worth running around a building about.
God Created our emotions. Worship is neither emotions alone nor intellect alone. God is a spirit annd those who worship Him "MUST" worship Him in spirit and truth.
Traditions usually dictate the style that a person accepts as the standard of worship. That however goes against God's word since we are to Worship God who is a Spirit, in Spirit and Truth.
Traditions "can" become a form of godliness that denies the Power of God a\when this happens the traditions of man make the word of God af no effect. That is why we are admonished to turn away from a form of godliness that denies the power of God.
It is interesting that when worship goes outside the realm of ones traditions that assumptions are made that we had better be careful about chasing an experience. I believe that God is not just an Academic issue but that God gives us experiences . Traditions try to minimize this.
I have in my life time (I'm 47) seen people deny the idea of an experience with God only to see their Children to seek experiences outside of the realm of What God has for them. God made us to Experience Him. When i was Born again it was an experience. It was the greadtest experience I have ever had. It is worth running around a building about.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Atestring,
I think you are reading more into Tater's words than are really there. Tataer is not arguing against all emotion or experiences. She is arguing against emotional manipulation which tends to overide the intellect. Not all emotions or experiences are good or Godly. This is why we should judge all teachings and experiences against the objective standard of the Bible. Once we are confronted with the Biblical truth of the Bible, and convicted by the Holy Spirit about the truth, the emotional experience will follow naturally, not at man's manipulation or urging. We don't lead with emotions...we must subject all emotions and experiences to the standard truth of the Bible. In simplest terms, we lead with the intellect, and follow with the emotions.
Joseph Botwinick
I think you are reading more into Tater's words than are really there. Tataer is not arguing against all emotion or experiences. She is arguing against emotional manipulation which tends to overide the intellect. Not all emotions or experiences are good or Godly. This is why we should judge all teachings and experiences against the objective standard of the Bible. Once we are confronted with the Biblical truth of the Bible, and convicted by the Holy Spirit about the truth, the emotional experience will follow naturally, not at man's manipulation or urging. We don't lead with emotions...we must subject all emotions and experiences to the standard truth of the Bible. In simplest terms, we lead with the intellect, and follow with the emotions.
Joseph Botwinick
Dear Tator,
I can respect your experinece. I can also tell you that there are people that do not go to Church because it is boring. It is dry as yesterdays cornbread.
My worship and I am sure your worship is about God. We don't worship lost people. We gather to exalt the name of Jesus. If He is lifted up the lost will be drawn to him.
This can take on many forms sinced the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet, but it is to be in Spirit and truth and we must leave the concern of the lost having a reaction to this to God.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Atestring,
Is it the Church's job to be interesting and entertain the lost? And, if so, at what cost? What is entertaining to the world today may not be enough tommorow. Why...tommorow they may demand we be more and more like them to keep them there...and sooner or later, they may feel completely comfortable in a social club that is no different from the world....wait, I think we are actually already almost there now in many churches.
Joseph Botwinick
Is it the Church's job to be interesting and entertain the lost? And, if so, at what cost? What is entertaining to the world today may not be enough tommorow. Why...tommorow they may demand we be more and more like them to keep them there...and sooner or later, they may feel completely comfortable in a social club that is no different from the world....wait, I think we are actually already almost there now in many churches.
Joseph Botwinick
T
TaterTot
Guest
You may misunderstand me. I believe that worship is an experience, and we should experience HIM (as you say, and I like that). In my private worship times, I raise my hands, etc, so I am in no way against that either. I just have seen many people think that they have worshipped after some pretty songs and a fluffy feeling. I spent many years living near the Pensacola Outpourring (Toronto Blessing style "revival") and saw first hand in our church how the emotions could be manipulated and confused with true worship. So some of that comes from my experience with that. I am all for changes in style in worship services. But the substance has to be there.