Encouraging Words from John Hagee...

[Jack Matthews]

I disagree with Hagee's eschatology. He does have a habit of jumping on a new Armageddon theme as world circumstances change. He was on the bandwagon of the Soviet Union being the deliverer of all things prophetic related to the antichrist and never uttered a peep about Islam until after 9-11. However, a lot of Baptists are off on that trail as well, including Tim LaHaye, who is further off in left field than Hagee on this subject.

However, I also disagree with the "write-off" attitude that a lot of people around here give out with regard to Hagee. God is clearly using his ministry to advance his kingdom, even though there are some doctrinal disagreements between his Charismatic position and that of Baptists. We all pretty much see through a glass darkly, at this point, and I think the approach to interpreting the scripture by the use of "sound" hermeneutical principles, from a Baptist perspective, is reliance on our own intelligence and is leaning on our own understanding in our attempt to understand the scripture. It's as flawed as the excesses in attempting to rely solely upon the Spirit, which is the Charismatic error.

To me, criticism of Hagee among Baptists is a sign of spiritual immaturity. I think we have a really distorted view of who the enemy is.

 

[J.D.]

I disagree with Hagee's eschatology. He does have a habit of jumping on a new Armageddon theme as world circumstances change. He was on the bandwagon of the Soviet Union being the deliverer of all things prophetic related to the antichrist and never uttered a peep about Islam until after 9-11. However, a lot of Baptists are off on that trail as well, including Tim LaHaye, who is further off in left field than Hagee on this subject.

However, I also disagree with the "write-off" attitude that a lot of people around here give out with regard to Hagee. God is clearly using his ministry to advance his kingdom, even though there are some doctrinal disagreements between his Charismatic position and that of Baptists. We all pretty much see through a glass darkly, at this point, and I think the approach to interpreting the scripture by the use of "sound" hermeneutical principles, from a Baptist perspective, is reliance on our own intelligence and is leaning on our own understanding in our attempt to understand the scripture. It's as flawed as the excesses in attempting to rely solely upon the Spirit, which is the Charismatic error.

To me, criticism of Hagee among Baptists is a sign of spiritual immaturity. I think we have a really distorted view of who the enemy is.

Sound hermeneutics prevent reliance on our own intellegence. Inventing analogies and phrophecies from incidental events amounts to leaning on one's own understanding. We should rely solely upon the Spirit. John Hagee may not be our enemy, but error is.

 

[skypair]

For you, it can mean anything you want it to mean. Get enough "scholars" like Hagee and Rogers to agree with you and it becomes "truth". What hermeneutic did you apply to arrive at that conclusion?

Your favorite one -- allegory. :laugh: Most of theology until 1700 was built on allegorical intepretation which is why eschatology was so messed up before that. The primary allegorical error was that the church replaced and was Israel. The second was that baptism, then, replaced circumcision. There are many others to choose from. Needless to say, your theology needs updating to the literal-historical hermeneutic.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I am free to dissect Hagee anyway I choose. He dissects me every time he refers to those who don't believe like he does as "not teaching the truth". I don't need to see his intents, I have his actions and words to examine.

Do you believe there will be "false teachers" in the end times? Do you believe that preachers ought to warn against them like Peter and Paul and Jude did? Do you see him as alone in teaching what he does? Or are there "mouths of two of more witnesses" on his side in most of what he preaches?

Concerning John 14; Jesus is going to return one day and in the mean time is preparing a place for us. Truth is you have more of a problem with John 14 then I do. Where in John 14 do you see a rapture and second coming as two separate events?

If you are unclear about it, I am glad you asked.

Where do I see the rapture? In that Christ promised to take us to the place prepared in heaven -- New Jerusalem -- I see such a resurrection only described in 1Thes 4:16-17, 2Thes 1:5-7, Rev 4:1. This agrees with where Jesus was going, right? And NJ IS for the church. We bear its name on our foreheads, our names on its pillars, the apostles are it's foundation. It is our "kingdom promise" vs. Israel's kingdom of the earth.

And "Let not your heart be troubled" would be faint encouragement if He was saying we need to go through the great tribulation, now wouldn't it? "Men's hearts failing them for fear" in the GT and you think your heart won't be troubled??

If you make it out to be at the 2nd coming, where is the "place prepared" in heaven that He spoke of? Where the "rest" Paul spoke of in 2Thes 1:7 if we go up, suit up, and come right back to battle with Christ?

skypair

 

[skypair]

I disagree with Hagee's eschatology. He does have a habit of jumping on a new Armageddon theme as world circumstances change. He was on the bandwagon of the Soviet Union being the deliverer of all things prophetic related to the antichrist and never uttered a peep about Islam until after 9-11. However, a lot of Baptists are off on that trail as well, including Tim LaHaye, who is further off in left field than Hagee on this subject.

However, I also disagree with the "write-off" attitude that a lot of people around here give out with regard to Hagee. God is clearly using his ministry to advance his kingdom, even though there are some doctrinal disagreements between his Charismatic position and that of Baptists. We all pretty much see through a glass darkly, at this point, and I think the approach to interpreting the scripture by the use of "sound" hermeneutical principles, from a Baptist perspective, is reliance on our own intelligence and is leaning on our own understanding in our attempt to understand the scripture. It's as flawed as the excesses in attempting to rely solely upon the Spirit, which is the Charismatic error.

To me, criticism of Hagee among Baptists is a sign of spiritual immaturity. I think we have a really distorted view of who the enemy is.

Jack -- thank you for your comments. Yes, we are all trying to see what scripture says and have all changed our view in light of current events. Everyone has been wrong at one time or another about the wars in the tribulation and we still don't see clearly those of the GT.

skypair

 

[skypair]

We should rely solely upon the Spirit. John Hagee may not be our enemy, but error is.

I think you are discounting that we have the "mind of Christ" and that many of our thoughts are from the Spirit, JD. But we are all growing in the Spirit and in His gifts.

skypair

 

[go2church]

Do you believe there will be "false teachers" in the end times? Do you believe that preachers ought to warn against them like Peter and Paul and Jude did? Do you see him as alone in teaching what he does? Or are there "mouths of two of more witnesses" on his side in most of what he preaches?

If you are unclear about it, I am glad you asked.

Where do I see the rapture? In that Christ promised to take us to the place prepared in heaven -- New Jerusalem -- I see such a resurrection only described in 1Thes 4:16-17, 2Thes 1:5-7, Rev 4:1. This agrees with where Jesus was going, right? And NJ IS for the church. We bear its name on our foreheads, our names on its pillars, the apostles are it's foundation. It is our "kingdom promise" vs. Israel's kingdom of the earth.

And "Let not your heart be troubled" would be faint encouragement if He was saying we need to go through the great tribulation, now wouldn't it? "Men's hearts failing them for fear" in the GT and you think your heart won't be troubled??

If you make it out to be at the 2nd coming, where is the "place prepared" in heaven that He spoke of? Where the "rest" Paul spoke of in 2Thes 1:7 if we go up, suit up, and come right back to battle with Christ?

skypair

We do need to warned of false teachers....Attention everyone - Don't listen to John Hagee! How's that?


Concerning John 14 - you didn't answer the question, instead you ran with assumsions to another passage of scripture to support your already established assumstions of a rapture and the second coming being two separate events. John 14 says nothing of a rapture, it only says we will one day be with Jesus. But I will give you another shot at it?

Galatians 6:16 - Who are the Israel of God?

 

[J.D.]

Your favorite one -- allegory. :laugh: Most of theology until 1700 was built on allegorical intepretation which is why eschatology was so messed up before that. The primary allegorical error was that the church replaced and was Israel. The second was that baptism, then, replaced circumcision. There are many others to choose from. Needless to say, your theology needs updating to the literal-historical hermeneutic.

skypair

Who said this?: "Which things are an allegory"
Hint: it was an apostle.

There's nothing new about literalism. But all literalist positions that I know of, both then and now, must eventually fall back on allegory to complete their thesis.

What's new today is hyper-literalism. It's one-upmanship among dispensationalists.

Both Hagar and Sarah were literal people, as was Ishmeal and Isaac; but though they were literal people, and the events were literal events, yet they served as an allegory to express spiritual truth.

Visions are literal visions which express truth, but not literal events. Let allegories be allegories, and let visions be visions, and let prophecies be prophecies. That's all I'm saying. Stop force-feeding meanings that aren't there.

 

[skypair]

Stop force-feeding meanings that aren't there.

And all I'm saying as there are too many "coincidences" between the two -- Joseph and Jesus -- to ignore. Whereas much of your theology (insofar as it is Calvinist), is based largely on allegorical interperpretation.

skypair