END OF WORLD question.

JackRUS

Adam Clark:

Verse 21. For then shall be great tribulation
No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews:-rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luke 21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled. 1. These were the days in which all the calamities predicted by Moses, Joel, Daniel, and other prophets, as well as those predicted by our Saviour, met in one common centre, and were fulfilled in the most terrible manner on that generation. 2. These were the days of vengeance in another sense, as if God's judgments had certain periods and revolutions; for it is remarkable that the temple was burned by the Romans in the same month, and on the same day of the month, on which it had been burned by the Babylonians. See Josephus, WAR, b. vi. c. 4.


Matthew Henry:

It was a desolation unparalleled, such as was not since the beginning of the world, nor ever shall be. Many a city and kingdom has been made desolate, but never any with a desolation like this. Let not daring sinners think that God has done his worst, he can heat the furnace seven times and yet seven times hotter, and will, when he sees greater and still greater abominations. The Romans, when they destroyed Jerusalem, were degenerated from the honour and virtue of their ancestors, which had made even their victories easy to the vanquished. And the wilfulness and obstinacy of the Jews themselves contributed much to the increase of the tribulation. No wonder that the ruin of Jerusalem was an unparalleled ruin, when the sin of Jerusalem was an unparalleled sin--even their crucifying Christ. The nearer any people are to God in profession and privileges, the greater and heavier will his judgments be upon them, if they abuse those privileges, and be false to that profession, Amos 3:2.

Read the works of Josephus. He was an eyewitness.

John Gill:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days…
That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass;

John Lightfoot:

29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[The sun shall be darkened, &c.] That is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10, and Ezekiel 32:7,8, &c.

 

OldRegular,

I agree with your view, except that I see from Scripture a thousand year reign of Christ between point 4 and 5.

Point three would then occur in two stages according to Rev. 20. The first resurrection occuring for believers at the begining of the reign of Christ and the second resurrection (great white throne judgment) occuring at the end of the thousdand years.

Thus, I am post-trib, premill.

In my understanding, the Day of the Lord is the thousand year reign of Christ, but some may simply interpret the Day of the Lord to be the Second Coming. I'm not sure it matters.

 

End of what age? When did this "age", they were asking about the end of, begin? Paul said the end of the ages had come upon them. I Cor 10:11. What is Paul refering to? Peter said the "end of all things" was at hand. I Peter 4:7. End of what things?

What about verses 4-14, were those not fulfilled?
What is your basis for believing that verse 23 is somehow a change of subject?

I would agree that speaks of Christ's parousia. However many partial-prets see this as speaking to the events of AD70.

John Lightfoot (1859)
"That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deut. 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.' Jer. 4:23; 'I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light,' &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isa. 65:17; 'Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered,' &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Cor. 5:17, &c. (vol. 2, pp. 18-19)

2 Peter 3:13: 'We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth.' The heaven and the earth of the Jewish church and commonwealth must be all on fire, and the Mosaic elements burnt up; but we, according to the promise made to us by Isaiah the prophet, when all these are consumed, look for the new creation of the evangelical state" (vol. 3, p.453)

John Owen (1721)
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.

' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state

'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

I agree. I think is is quite clear these verses speak of the destruction of Jerusalem. However I would also agree with most dispies that you cannot honestly split up the Discourse.


Luke 21: 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

What are these "all things written" refering to?

John Gill:

so shall also the coming of the son of man be;

which must be understood not of his last coming to judgment, though that will be sudden, visible, and universal; he will at once come to, and be seen by all, in the clouds of heaven, and not in deserts and secret chambers: nor of his spiritual coming in the more sudden, and clear, and powerful preaching of the Gospel all over the Gentile world; for this was to be done before the destruction of Jerusalem: but of his coming in his wrath and vengeance to destroy that people, their nation, city, and temple: so that after this to look for the Messiah in a desert, or secret chamber, must argue great stupidity and blindness; when his coming was as sudden, visible, powerful, and general, to the destruction of that nation, as the lightning that comes from the east, and, in a moment, shines to the west.

Most partial preterist I have read understood the events of AD70 to be "a" coming, but not "the" coming. I, however, do not believe Jesus or the NT writers taught 2 "comings".

The problem with spliting up the discourse is found in verse 34:


34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

John Lightfoot:

[This generation shall not pass, &c.] Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment, but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matthew 16:28, compare John 21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others.


You see, full-preterist and dispies agree. Matt 24 speaks of the return of Christ and the end of the "age". We are both consistent.

You and I also agree it speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem.

I can take the writing of those who are not full-preterist( futurist and partial-prets) and make my case for full-preterism.

It was actually the advocates of the A-Mill and Post-Mill persuasion that led me out of dispensationalism and into the full-preterist view.

 

Did Adam Clarke or Gill, or Henry, or Lightfootwitness WWI or WWII or the Gulags in Russia or the killing fields of Cambodia or ANY of the horrendous "tribulations" of mankind of this past 20th century?

I don't think so.

For one to equivocate what happened to Jerusalem with any of these atrocities by saying the Fall of Jerusalem was worse is beyond my comprehension.

And by the way, Jesus said that the generation who saw ALL these things come to pass would not pass away. The generation of AD 70 did NOT SEE all of it happen.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

__________________________________________________

JIMISM?

In HIS service;
Jim

(edit) Seriously it might be called pre-trib, partial rapture, pre-mil, literal Kingdom, exclusionist, Gospel

 

Yes, I believe it is.

Sure they did.


Dr. Bob

No Bob, preterist don't believe that.
2 ages, Old Covenant age and New Covenant age.

Ed starts the Church age at Pentecost you start it at the Cross.
What end of ages was Paul refering to in I Cor 10:11? Why does Hebrews 8:13 state the Old Covenant was passing away if it had already passed some 30 years earlier?

 

Please explain what you mean by full futurist so I can respond to your assertion. </font>[/QUOTE]I have a parallel study book (quite thick) of Revelation verse for verse.

</font>[/QUOTE]If you are talking about Gregg's book I have it.

 

Phillip: "I have a parallel study book (quite thick) of Revelation verse for verse.

It goes over every single verse and explains it in four different viewpoints. I will get the book tonight and post its summary of each view point."

Thank you. The request you had in about the third post was
not adheeered to, so the format of posts were not easy to
understand most viewpoints. Other Threads that act like
a specific viewpoint are so full of static that nothing can
be gained from the posts about what folk really believe.

I think all too common a viewpoint is YOU ARE WRONG!
I'd rather hear what folks believe, i can figure it out for myself
what i believe.

 

God created time for us, not Him. If God created time for His creation then don't you believe He would communicate in such a way His creation would understand? Too say something is near, at hand, or soon to happen is an absolutely meaningless and mis-leading term if your definition is correct. To me this is the fatal flaw of all futuristic views.

Funny, many dispie preachers today will tell us Jesus is coming soon/the end is near. So I guess soon means soon today, and near means near today but not 2000 years ago.

I ask again, if Jesus wished to indicate these events were to happen in the lifetime of those standing there, which greek word for "generation" would He have used?????

genemma is used for race:

genemma (1081)
Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation &lt;1081&gt; of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Yet 3 verses later Jesus uses the word genea:

genea, (1074)
Matthew 23:36 "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation &lt;1074&gt;."

If they both mean race, why switch?

Read Matt 23 and see the woes Jesus pronounces on the Jews. Now, John MacArthur, a noted dispy, says Matt 23:36 refers to those Jews of that historic time and they experienced this in AD70. Remember 23:36 uses the word genea.

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation &lt;1074&gt; shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."


Yet MacArthur when commenting on Matt 24:34 says generation(genea) cannot refer to the generation living at that time, because "all these things did not take place". You see he let his pre-supposition interpret generation.

I think not only the greek but common sense says Matt 24:34 indicates those Jews living at that time just like 23:36 did.


Eusebius

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan called Pella. Here, those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles, finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth...these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each particular of its progress, when finally the abomination of desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which now was approaching its total downfall and final destruction by fire; all this, I say any one that wishes may see accurately stated in the history written by Josephus." (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 5)

 

Is it not possible that the context of Matt. 24:34 tells us that this generation is the one who sees all these things, having used the fig tree as an illustration?

Verse 29 must take place before "this generation" will experience the Second Coming of Christ.

Where MacArther is wrong is in limiting the passage to Jews. It is obviously directed to the disciples of Christ, which therefore includes the church, both believing Jews and Gentiles.

Isn't that the point of the Great Commission? His disciples are to teach all nations to obey everything he has commanded them (the disciples). That includes the teaching of Matthew 24!

 

__________________________________________________

JIMISM?

In HIS service;
Jim

(edit) Seriously it might be called pre-trib, partial rapture, pre-mil, literal Kingdom, exclusionist, Gospel </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you. Now if the people with the wierd,
minority eschatologies would attempt to
describe and name their eschatologies.

 

Moderator, please take note of the insulting manner of this post.

[ March 08, 2005, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: covenant ]

 

I agree POV with scripture to back it up and let everyone take and study it themselves, hopefully prayerfully, to discern truth.

Arguing back and forth becomes rather pointless after 5 or so threads of many pages where everyone is maintaining the same position throughout.

Dave

 

Grasshopper.
So you claim that Josehus witnessed the second coming of Jesus Christ on the clouds. And yet he remained a Jew and not a Christian?

Of course I mean this: "...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Mt. 24:29-30

Not the sacking of Jerusalem at the hands of Titus. No one can argue that this event has ever taked place.

And the tribulation of Mt. 24:21 is understood to be accumlative worldwide. Not an isolated case as in 70AD.

 

One thing that can be said about Ed Edwards is that he is a model of consistency?.

 

Josephus witnessed the events of AD70. It was the coming on the clouds that Jesus described. "coming on the clouds" is a figure of speech used in the OT. Go back to the OT and find references to Jehovah coming on the clouds. It was usually judgement.Jesus used the same language as OT Prophets.

Matt 26:64 Jesus told those there they would see this.
Matt 16:27-28 Jesus told those there some would see this.

Understood by who? Futurist?

 

Grasshopper.
You wrote:

I know that Josephus witnessed the events of 70AD, but your argument that the coming of Christ on the clouds was a figure of speach is wrong.

The verse clearly says that all the tribes of the earth (that's in the whole world) shall see Him come:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

And the angels in Acts 1 said the exact same thing.

"And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

Why not take this literally? Isn't it exactly what is spoken in Mt. 24:30? See also Zech. 12:10

 

Here are OT references to "comings" and coming on clouds". Tell me if you take them all literally.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt : and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Ps. 18: 9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly ; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind .

Micah 1: 3 For, behold, Jehovah cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Ex. 3: 8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians,

Exodus 16:10 - It came about as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exodus 34:5 - The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD.

Leviticus 16:2 - The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat."

Numbers 11:25 - Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him....

Clouds many times represent God's presence, not a weather forecast.

2 key words, earth and tribes.

Tribes is used in reference to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Earth doesn't necessarily mean planet. In fact it rarely does.

earth comes from the greek word: "gh"


Definitions:
arable land
the ground, the earth as a standing place
the main land as opposed to the sea or water
the earth as a whole
the earth as opposed to the heavens
the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

Here are what some scholars who know much more than I say:

Adam Clark:

Verse 30. Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man
The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By t?????, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

Barnes' Notes:

All the tribes of the earth mourn. This is, either all the tribes or people of the land of Judea shall mourn at the great calamities coming upon them

John Gill:

And then shall the tribes of the earth,
or land, mourn;
that is, the land of Judea; for other lands, and countries, were not usually divided into tribes, as that was; neither were they affected with the calamities and desolations of it, and the vengeance of the son of man upon it; at least not so as to mourn on that account, but rather were glad and rejoiced:

If you wish to take it literally then you must take it literally in the verses I previously asked you to comment on:

Matt 16:27For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."


Did some standing there see the events of verses 27 and 28?

Jesus is brought before Caiaphus in Matt 26:

57And those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

64Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you , hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Did those to whom Jesus was speaking see this event?

Now, what does Zech 12:10 say:

Zech 12:10"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

First it is clearly limited to the land of Judea and the tribes of Israel.

Secondly, are you suggesting this is somewhere fulfilled in our future? If so, John must have been mistaken when he wrote this:

John 19:36For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken." 37And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced."

John puts it at the crucifixion of Christ. On what basis do you put Zech 12 in our future?