End Times Prophecy?

End Times Prophecy

May I ask why you give no scripture to support your assumption that the 144,000 Jews are NOT members of the Bride of the Lamb?

They are "firtstfruits unto both God and the Lamb".

They will be "redeemed from earth" before the First Resurrection occurs.

"They will follow the Lamb whever He goes"! Rev.14:4.

They will be taken to heaven to sing the song of the Lamb before He is crowned King of kings. Rev.14:3; Rev.15:3.

They join the Martyrs out of great tribulation to "present the Son of Man to the Ancient of days" just before He is crowned King. Dan.7:13-14.

"All the Saints" come with Christ and the 144,000 are among them!!!!!!!!!
I Thess.3:13.

Please, what are the scriptures you suppose must contradict the fact that the Lamb will rescue these firstfruit unto God from Mt. Zion before they sing the Song of the Lamb and the Martyrs sing the Song of Moses standing on the sea/river of fire in heaven?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

The 144000 is a symbolic reference to those Jews who left the Old Covenant and entered the New Covenant through Christ. This is why there are called the firstfruits. Firstfruits don't arrive at the end but come at the beginning.

Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

End Times

The Firstfruits are always gathered at the END of Harvest-Time. At the end-of the-age Harvest, ALL Believers, including the 144,000, must be gathered on the LAST DAY.

These "Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb" are the first ones raised up from the earth and will "follow the Lamb wherever He goes". Rev.14:4.

You gave no evidence that these Jews are SYMOBLIC of those who "left the Old Covenant" or that they will be taken from Mt. Zion to heaven prior to the LAST DAY.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Then why did James call 1st century converts, firstfruits?

Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Would this be the same age Paul was speaking of?

1Co 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

The same age the disciples asked about?

Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

This doesn’t fit the 1st century Church?

 

Mel, the two witnesses are here to preach for 3-1/2 years. If the Church (Bride of Christ) is still here, there is no need for God to send the two witnesses since we, the Church, are preaching the Gospel to the world ever since the Great Commission.

Another interesting thought is that the old law said that no fruit or first fruits could be gathered until the fourth year of a new planting. Seems to tie in.

 

I am starting to think there might be two raptures. One pre-trib and one mid-trib. How's that for throwing a rock into the debate? :laugh:

 

Wait! What will happen to any who get converted after mid-trib and
die for not taking the mark. Won't they be raptured in the post-trib rapture?

I think i'll write an essay about the FIVE RAPTURES :sleeping_2:

 

End Times Prophecy

My lady friend,

If you think that Jesus will "raise up and gather the saints from earth to heaven" at a Pre-Trib rapture and again at a Mid-Trib rapture, may I ask:

Why did He promise FOUR times in the same passage to "raise up every believer, indeed all believers, on the Last Day because this is His Father's will"? If you accept His word, why do you not make note of the fact that, THREE times, He repeated "He came to do this on the LAST DAY because this is His Father's will"? John 6:38-40,44,54.

Frankly, I can't understand why a Moderator of this FORUM would be so
superficial as to ignore the word of the Lord that "He will raise up ALL believers on the LAST DAY and gather them from earth to heaven in the days after the great tribulation"!

The LAST DAY can be no other Day than one of the days "immediately AFTER the great tribulation". Mark 13:24,27; Matt.24:29,31. If you challenge this statement, then how can God's word be dependable??

How did you get separate days for the resurrection and rapture of all believers prior to the Last Day???
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

End Times

Grasshopper,

There is only ONE DAY'S Harvest from earth to heaven at the End of the Age. The meaning of "firstfruits" in Rev.14:4 is limited to the end-of-the-age "gathering of firstfruits". Other NT references also have an entime reference. Paul anticipated future blessings of those whom he called "firstfruits". Paul used the word "firstfruits" of the Thessalonians whom God chose as "firstfruits of salvation". Rom.8:23; 2 Thess.2:13 (Greek text).

Jesus is "firstfruit" of the resurrection of all believers on the Last Day.

John uses this term of the 144,000 Jews, not because they are a Symbol
as you claim, but because they are the first ones "raised up to heaven on the LAST DAY". All Believers must rise up on that day; but only firstfruits unto God and the Lamb (and the Two Witnesses) are taken to the third heaven for the Three-Act Temple Drama from Rev.7:9 to 8:5; 11:15-19. This Drama cannot begin until "the Last Plague empties in the air and the smoke of God's glory and power clears from the Temple"!!! Rev.15:8.

The announcement that "God's wrath has come and the appointed time" for Resurrection, Rapture and Retribution (Rev.11:18) will not occur until the Temple "was open" (vs.19) after God's anger is exhausted in the Plagues and the smoke of His glory and power clears and "The Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony Opens". Rev.15:5.

The TEMPLE OPENS AFTER THE 144,000 ARE TAKEN TO HEAVEN TO SING THE SONG OF THE LAMB. Rev.14:3-4; Rev.15:3-4. Rev.15:5. Then the action goes immediately to Rev.7:9 for "after these things, I looked and behold ..." The 7th Trumpet sounds (for the first of three times) in the third act of the Open Temple Drama. Rev.11:15-18.

All this happens on the LAST DAY, the END-OF-THE-AGE HARVEST DAY!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Mel Miller: //The LAST DAY can be no other Day than one of the days
"immediately AFTER the great tribulation".
Mark 13:24,27; Matt.24:29,31. If you challenge this statement,
then how can God's word be dependable??//

Sorry, that is so arrogant, to FLAUNT that your understanding is
better than the understanding of others.

I said it before and will say it again:
in Bible prophecy 'day' means 'the appropriate time'.

I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
Don't get your opinion of what Jesus meant
get confused with what Jesus said.

 

Five Judgements of JUDGEMENT DAY

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

End Times

EE,

You've listed these five judgments several times; but continue to overlook the two most important of God's Judgments on evil nations before the Endtime can even begin. Why don't you stick to the Subject under discussion, i.e., End Time Prophecy?

The next judgment concerns God's Purpose to show evil nations hat He is the God of Israel ... something that becomes more and more necessary as the terrorists intensify their attacks upon Democratic nations. This is the
judgment upon Gog and Magog during a "time of peace" for Israel recorded
in Ezek.38-39. The crisis in the Mid-East today is peanuts compared to
the coming devastation that will require 7 months to bury the dead and 7 years to bury the invaders' weapons of war. Ezek.39:9-14.

The final judgment before the Endtime begins and Antichrist is revealed will wake up God's people to the need to "come out of Mystery Babylon
the great" or suffer the judgment of plagues coming upon them as well as the nations that support the Harlot that God must Judge. Rev.17:1.

Of course, you don't expect to be here since you mistake the Judgment on Babylon for her Apostasy as being a referernce to the "deparature" of the Church to heaven. Apostate Babylon must be "taken out of the midst" of the attempted mixture of lawful Democratic nations and the "ten" evil Despotic regimes before the Lawless One can be revealed. 2 Thess.2:7.

That removal will be an act of God's Judgment thru 10 Kings who will "destroy the City in one hour" and then, by God's Sovereignty, "give their power and authority to the Beast until His will is fulfilled". Rev.17:16-17.

Since these Judgments concern terrorist nations before God "begins the judgment of Israel and discipline of His people after Democracy has been "removed from the earth", what will it be like for disobeying His command to "come out of her, My People, lest you partake of her sins and share in her plagues"!? Rev.18:4.

We should thank God for using Bush to enable the ideology of the White
Horeseman to continue "overcoming and conquering" the evil that will
lead to the display of His purpose on behalf of Israel and preparation for the final display of His Power during the Endtime of 1260 days thru the Two Prophets. They will prepare Israel and preserve 144,000 Jews as the "firstfruit unto God and the Lamb" RAISED up to heaven on the Last Day!
"All beliervers, including the Firstfruit who will follow the Lamb wherever He goes, will be raised up and/or gathered from earth to heaven on the same
LAST DAY ... immediately after the great tribulation. John 6:38-40,44,54; Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31.

The Endtime is when UNITY among believers will be used of God to convince the world that "God sent Jesus to be our Savior and the Messiah of Israel"! John 17:21-26. To fulfill this supreme prayer of Jesus, "He did not pray that we be taken out of the world" or be spared of the great tribulation; but only to be "kept from the evil one". John 17:15.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

Mel Miller: //This is the
judgment upon Gog and Magog during
a "time of peace" for Israel recorded
in Ezek.38-39. //

Compare Ezekiel 38 and Ezekiel 39.
In Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog has allies; in Ezekiel 39 no allies are mentioned.
Etc.

Mel Miller: //You've listed these five judgments several times;
but continue to overlook the two most important of God's Judgments
on evil nations before the Endtime can even begin.
Why don't you stick to the Subject under discussion,
i.e., End Time Prophecy?//

Note that my five judgements were selected for the evalgelistic
message that went along with the information.

I beleive the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invasions of
Israel is as you say:
the pre-tribulation (or early tribulation) invasion.
The Ezekiel 39 Gog/Magog invasion of Israel
is the post-'Millinnial Messanic Kingdom' invasion
described in Revelation 20:7-9.

 

Brother Mel, I am NOT a moderator of this forum. Also, I am having difficulty following what you are saying - I have a great deal of difficulty to figure out what you are referencing because the subject seems to flit from topic to topic. Please quote the Scriptures you are referring to so I can better understand your point. Thanks.

 

_____________________________________________________________
EE,

I don't need to FLAUNT the words of Jesus!
His words speak the inerrant truth of God!!
No possible "private interpretation" exists!!!
These are His immutable, irrefutable words:

"Jesus promised FOUR times in the same passage to "raise up every believer, indeed all believers, on the Last Day because this is His Father's will"! If you accept His word, why do you not make note of the fact that, THREE times, He repeated: "I came to raise up every believer on the LAST DAY because this is My Father's will"? John 6:38-40,44,54.

These words do not express my "arrogant opinion"! But I am willing to die for the word of the Holy God whose will must be the last word to the last Day when He "sends the angels to gather all the Elect unto Himself"! Do you love Him enough to accept what He said as the Will of His Father?
_____________________________________________________________
At 3:40 PM yesterday you even admitted that Jesus might be right:
Quote:
"What will happen to any who get converted after mid-trib and die for
not taking the mark. Won't they be raptured in the post-trib rapture"?
_____________________________________________________________
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

End Times

My Dear Friend in Christ,

I'm sorry if I failed to quote any Scripture needed to support my view.
But yesterday I did give you the exact Scripture and requested yours.
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"Why did He promise FOUR times in the same passage to "raise up every believer, indeed all believers, on the Last Day because this is His Father's will"? If you accept His word, why do you not make note of the fact that, THREE times, He repeated "He came to do this on the LAST DAY because this is His Father's will"? John 6:38-40,44,54.
_____________________________________________________________

I had asked you first for your Scripture to support your original remark:
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"I am starting to think there might be two raptures. One pre-trib and one mid-trib".
_____________________________________________________________

You responded to my request for Scripture by asking me for the Scripture
that I had already given. John 6:38-40. Do these verses have another
meaning that I have failed to understand? Am I "arrogant and flaunting my own opinion" as EE charges? Jesus quoted these words as being both the will of His Father and the reason for being sent by the Father!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

Mel Miller: //I don't need to FLAUNT the words of Jesus!//

Amen Brother Mel -- Preach it!.

Ed said: // ... to FLAUNT that your understanding is
better than the understanding of others//

Note the complete difference between the two circumstances:
1) 'the words of Jesus'
2) Mel's understanding of the words of Jesus

Mel Miller speaking of Jesus: //No possible "private interpretation" exists!!//

Thank you, i'm making a list of misunderstood phrases of
the Bible. The Holy Scripture says:

2 Pe 1:20 (KJV1611 Edition):
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture
is of any priuate Interpretation:

Many people make the error of changing 'prophecy' to 'scripture'.
Other people make the error of changing 'opinion (of what the scripture
means)' to 'interpertation (of what the scripture says).

My opinion of what the verse means:
'no prophecy was given for a private individual (but is
available for the understanding of all)'

Incorrect statement: //No possible "private interpretation" exists!!//

Correcet statement //many possible private interpretations exist, none
of them are correct//

 

End Times

EE,

I've had to spend some time thinking about your "understanding of private
interpretation" and a relation to "arrogantly flaunting one's understanding" that you charge me with doing.

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"My opinion of what the verse means:
'no prophecy was given for a private individual (but is
available for the understanding of all)'

Incorrect statement: //No possible "private interpretation" exists!!//

Correcet statement //many possible private interpretations exist, none
of them are correct//
_____________________________________________________________

I agree with your conclusion that "many private interpretations exist"; but I don't think you mean that "NONE of them are correct"!

I agree your "interpretation" of the *DAY* of God's and the Lamb's wrath is correct, i.e., that it is the "appointed time" for God's wrath. This is not a "private interpretation" since it is the meaning of KAIROS, a word found only at the 7th Trumpet for the "appointed time" of God's wrath!

We must agree therefore that this is not a private interpretation. For no one can disagree that the "appointed time for God's wrath" occurs at the first sound of the 7th Trumpet!! Rev.11:15-18.

The one question for "interpretation" is whether the 7th Trump is the Last Trump! Does the Last Trump sound AFTER the great tribulation or BEFORE as you interpret? Here we have reached an impasse since you claimed the words "AFTER the great tribulation" mean "BEFORE the great tribulation".

But since that impasse you have returned by charging me with "arrogantly flaunting my understanding" of the meaning of the word *DAY* as being a single 12-Hour (or the day-part of a 24-Hour) Day.

What you fail to include is that the 7th Trumpet is not only the "appointed time" for God's wrath but also for our Resurrection (to judge the dead) AND for our Rapture (to reward the saints and prophets and all who fear God, both small and great) AND for Retribution (to destroy those who are destroying the earth"! Rev.11:18.

Here is where your view comes into play that "every interpretation that IS PRIVATE may possibly be incorrect" (which is what I think you meant).

You obviously agree the "appointed time" for God's wrath comes at the 7th Trumpet! That is the only place in Revelation where KAIROS is used
of a SINGLE time. That fact cannot classify as a "private interpretation".

But your "private interpretations" allow that the Rapture may refer to a Pre-Trib event as well as a Post-Trib event. In fact you claim that the DAY of the Rapture in Matt.24:31 occurs "before" rather than "after" the great tribulation! (Back to our impasse over whether Jesus describes a Pre or Post-Trib Rapture. That contradictory "understanding" just won't go away). So are we both being "arrogant in flaunting our interpretations"?

OR will the 7th Trumpet sound three times on the DAY of God's wrath?
On that Day, one of the (3 1/2) days after the great triblation, Jesus will "gather the elect from earth to heaven upon the 4 winds". Mark13:24,27.

The tribes of earth will see the signs in the sun, moon and stars and see the Sign of the Son of Man and will mourn "immediately after the great tribulation AND they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". Matt.24:29-30.

"AND WITH THE SOUND OF A GREAT TRUMPET, the angels will gather His elect from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other". (Here Matt.24:31 repeats that "Jesus sends the angels and gathers the elect together above" but omits the word "THEN" (which appears only in Mark) since Jesus had already sent the angels and had gathered the elect from earth to heaven ... before the tribes see the Sign of the Son of Man!!!!!

In Mark 13:27 He gathers the Elect and then men "see the Son of Man".
In Matt.24:31 He sends the angels after "the tribes of earth mourn".

At the first sound of the Last Trump, is it possible that my interpretation is correct that the "appointed time" has come for Resurrection/Rapture?!

My interpretation is that, after a short time of rejoicing in heaven, "God brings with Jesus the souls of the dead in Christ" (including the souls of the Trib-Martyrs) and, at the 2nd sound of the Last Trump, Jesus keeps His word to do His Father's will. "On an unknown day after the great tribulation, He descends from heaven, raises up every/all believers, catches up those who are alive and survive, AND gathers us from earth to heaven". I Cor.15:52; Rev.19:11-15; I Thess.4:16; Mark 13:24; I Thess. 4:13-14; John 6:38-40; I Thess.4:17; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31.

In the process, the meeting at the Synagogue in the Sky (2 Thess.2:1) occurs after the 12 Jewish tribes of earth see the Son of Man and begin to mourn and then, upon "knowing their kingdom and redemption are near, will beg to escape all these things happening on all the face of all the earth and prevail to stand before the Son of Man" at the Hour of Trial
"coming on all mankind over the earth". Luke 21:28,31,34-36; Rev.3:10.

Jesus describes these events occurring "suddenly, unexpectedly, as a snare when He comes as a thief" with armies gathered to Armageddon! Rev.16:15.

I don't think I need to further expose your false charge that I am "arrogantly flaunting my understanding". This is a simple exposition of what I see happening on the 12-Hour-Day of the Lord during which 100 verses in the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled within six hours. See my Centerpiece. Twenty-Two Major Events from noon (Amos 8:9) to Twilight; the Day Christ becomes King and "comes with all the Saints". Zech.14:5-9; I Thess.3:13.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :type: :love2:

 

Mel Miller: // ... that you charge me with doing//

Actually I describe shoes. If the shoe fits, wear it.
I do appoligize, for I'm bad about saying 'you' when talking to
Mel Miller when I mean 'us' or 'a person' -- and I do apologize.

Mel Miller: //We must agree therefore that this is not a private interpretation. For no one can disagree that the "appointed time for God's wrath" occurs at the first sound of the 7th Trumpet!! Rev.11:15-18.//

This wonderful scripture tells what happens when the 7th trumpet sounds.
Show me in the Scriputre where the 7th trumpet is sounded.
(No, don't show me the LAST TRUMPET, or the TRUMPET OF GOD,
show me the 7th trumpet. Revelation would be a good place to
begin your study.)

 

End Times

____________________________________________________________
Ed,

I am simply amazed that we could agree that the 7th Trumpet is the
"appointed (kairos) time for God's wrath AND to judge the dead AND
reward the saints and prophets and all who fear God, both small and
great AND to destroy those who are destroying the earth"! Rev.15:18.

The "timing" you are asking about is explicit in that "chronos time shall be no longer (or, even "delay shall be no longer") IN THE DAYS WHENEVER THE 7TH TRUMPET IS ABOUT TO SOUND" (begins to sound)! Rev.10:6-7.

When do you think "time will be no longer"? Here is where we will surely
differ. But please explain exactly what years you think "chronos-time" includes. At what point will there no longer be any delay? I think you will respond that the 7th Trumpet will sound at Mid-Point of Daniel's 70th Seven!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey: