Engel Scale

[glfredrick]

I don't reccolect a discussion about the Engel Scale around here. Perhaps it is time to toss it out for a look.

I just grabbed one graphic from this site:

http://www.internetevangelismday.com/engel.php

 

[preacher4truth]

I think this scale is of utmost interest, and is a refreshing topic.

Any point of the scale where a "prayer of salvation" is offered prior to "personal problem recognition" is simply to bring one into a state of faith in faith, not proper salvation. How can one prior to this ever be saved, for He came to save the lost, Luke 19:10; the ungodly, Romans 5:6; the hostile, Colossians 2:21, and we can add Romans 3 as well, and much more.

One interesting note about where man should be at salvation reminds me of Paul Tillichs famous "Ultimate Concern" referring to man and his state, deep need, and passion at the point of salvation, what takes place at this point &c.

It's been a while since I've looked into Tillichs reason here, but that is also his point as well as concerning the state of man at salvation (i.e. personal problem recognition.)

- Peace

 

[glfredrick]

To be sure, I have some problems with the scale, but present it as a topic of discussion because it is a fresh look at some of our concerns.

 

[preacher4truth]

To be sure, I have some problems with the scale, but present it as a topic of discussion because it is a fresh look at some of our concerns.

Yes. One of my concerns is that persons properly come to a place where they know they are lost, pr, one of "ultimate concern" not just that they want to pray a prayer "so they can go to heaven."

 

[Amy.G]

Where is justification? It goes from conviction to sanctification.

 

[mont974x4]

biblically sanctification really means to be set apart by God for His holy purposes. So, I would put that prior to the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (NASB)


I understand why people who define sanctification differently (for example Nazarenes and others of a Welseyan background) would have an issue with my understanding.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK.... so what is the point of this exercise?

 

[DaChaser1]

biblically sanctification really means to be set apart by God for His holy purposes. So, I would put that prior to the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (NASB)


I understand why people who define sanctification differently (for example Nazarenes and others of a Welseyan background) would have an issue with my understanding.

We would be elected by God beforehand, then justified, and progressively sanctified!

 

[preacher4truth]

This threads going nowhere slow. :tongue3:

I thought it was an interesting point, especially on what must take place prior to salvation as men come to understand their lost state in accord with Scripture, AND according to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This especially in light that some on here reject the biblical lost state of man, and fight for mans goodness in his said state.

Scripture has a serious problem with this, and I side with Scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This threads going nowhere slow. :tongue3:

I thought it was an interesting point, especially on what must take place prior to salvation as men come to understand their lost state in accord with Scripture, AND according to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This especially in light that some on here reject the biblical lost state of man, and fight for mans goodness in his said state.

Scripture has a serious problem with this, and I side with Scripture.

SOME!?! Heck there are full colleges, universities & seminaries deadicated to this teaching.....face it brother, we hold to the minority position. However, thats OK by me.... my God actually saves people.:love2:

 

[preacher4truth]

SOME!?! Heck there are full colleges, universities & seminaries deadicated to this teaching.....face it brother, we hold to the minority position. However, thats OK by me.... my God actually saves people.:love2:

Well, I qualified "some" by "on here" but you are correct.

One cannot be saved until one knows he's lost, and this comes by the Holy Spirit. But it amazes me that some still fight for how good and moral man is in his lost state. These same become quite livid about the Romans 3 indictment upon all of mankind. These same must have felt they were in the "good ol' boys" club and were subsequently chosen.

 

[DaChaser1]

Well, I qualified "some" by "on here" but you are correct.

One cannot be saved until one knows he's lost, and this comes by the Holy Spirit. But it amazes me that some still fight for how good and moral man is in his lost state. These same become quite livid about the Romans 3 indictment upon all of mankind. These same must have felt they were in the "good ol' boys" club and were subsequently chosen.

"Not fair that God would blame me and pass judgement on me for something Adam did. Not fair that He imputed that to me/against me, and I have no choice to even get saved if I wanted to, as He won't let me!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"Not fair that God would blame me and pass judgement on me for something Adam did. Not fair that He imputed that to me/against me, and I have no choice to even get saved if I wanted to, as He won't let me!"

Again.....for the record; the person who wants salvation already HAS it. The individual who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). The alien sinner doesn't want salvation, they doesn't fear God, nor do they love God; therefore we conclude that the person who wants salvation, fears God and loves God is a subject of grace (Rom. 3: 11, 18; I John 4: 10).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Glfred my brother, you are going to have to detail out for me the finer points of tha chart.....I think I understand it, but thinking is not knowing. Please take a few.:thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

This chart is ONE WAY that some see the advance of the kingdom into the heart of an individual.

Some use it as a guide for evangelistic practice, in a Finney sort of way, whereby one is brought to a point where he or she finally accepts Christ. Of course, the chart is predominantly non-Calvinistic in nature, which is why I posted it. It does raise questions such as the one above concerning justification, and also raises questions concerning one's ability to chose Christ instead of Christ chosing he or she.

But if one holds to the Doctrines of Grace he or she already knows that the ability to respond to the effectual call of God means that the grace has already been extended to make that "choice" possible -- a point that both Calvinists and Arminians agree upon, albeit with differing interpretations of the nature of that grace.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thank you for the explaination my brother:thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

We hash out the same issues over and over here, and the fact that most never come at an issue from another perspective means simply that they have no other perspective.

In more simple terms, ignorance leading ignorant.

And, BTW, none of that means that I actually agree with the Engle Scale. I posted it for discussion.

Here is another version of the Engle Scale, listed in text format:

Level Description God Is Man's Task

-12 No God framework Confirming Prayer

-11 Experience of emptiness Presence

-10 God framework Revealing

-9 Vague awareness and belief in God

-8 Wondering if God can be known Preparation

-7 Aware of Jesus Guiding

-6 Interested in Jesus

-5 Experience of Christian love Proclamation

-4 Aware of basic facts of the gospel Convicting

-3 Aware of personal need

-2 Grasp the implications of the gospel Power

-1 Challenged to respond personally Converting

0 Repentance and faith

+1 Holy Spirit and baptism Transforming Encouragement

+2 Functioning member-local Church Empowering

+3 Growth in character, lifestyle and service

+4 Part of Team Leadership Support

There is another scale by James W. Fowler that some here would identify with:

Faith is seen as a holistic orientation, and is concerned with the individual's relatedness to the universal. Fowler defines faith as an activity of trusting, committing and relating to the world based on a set of assumptions of how one is related to others and the world.

Stage 0 – "Primal or Undifferentiated" faith (birth to 2 years), is characterized by an early learning of the safety of their environment (i.e. warm, safe and secure vs. hurt, neglect and abuse). If consistent nurture is experienced, one will develop a sense of trust and safety about the universe and the divine. Conversely, negative experiences will cause one to develop distrust with the universe and the divine. Transition to the next stage begins with integration of thought and languages which facilitates the use of symbols in speech and play.

Stage 1 – "Intuitive-Projective" faith (ages of three to seven), is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious.

Stage 2 – "Mythic-Literal" faith (mostly in school children), stage two persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their deities are almost always anthropomorphic.

Stage 3 – "Synthetic-Conventional" faith (arising in adolescence; aged 12 to adulthood) characterized by conformity to religious authority and the development of a personal identity. Any conflicts with one's beliefs are ignored at this stage due to the fear of threat from inconsistencies.

Stage 4 – "Individuative-Reflective" faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties) a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for his or her beliefs and feelings. As one is able to reflect on one's own beliefs, there is an openness to a new complexity of faith, but this also increases the awareness of conflicts in one's belief.

Stage 5 – "Conjunctive" faith (mid-life crisis) acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems. The individual resolves conflicts from previous stages by a complex understanding of a multidimensional, interdependent "truth" that cannot be explained by any particular statement.

Stage 6 – "Universalizing" faith, or what some might call "enlightenment". The individual would treat any person with compassion as he or she views people as from a universal community, and should be treated with universal principles of love and justice.

And, there is yet another scale that I sort of helped work on (I did core research for the project) via the book, "The Unchurched Next Door," called (after its author) the Rainer Scale.

For this project, Rainer had a team of interviewers conduct extensive one-on-one surveys with unchurched Americans from a wide variety of backgrounds. Rainer classifies them into five categories of unchurched. These are classified on the "Rainer scale" from a U-5 (highly resistant and antogonistic to the gospel) to a U-1 (high receptive to the gospel.) His researchers found that only 5% of Americans were U-5's (antogonistic), and that among the remaining 95% of the unchurched, the majority would likely come to church if somebody they knew invited them and offered to go with them into the building. Here was the most interesting statistic in the book– Answers to the question, would you be likely to go to church if invited:

U-5 (antogonistic): 0% very likely, 20% somewhat likely, for a total of 20%

U-4 (resistant but not antagonistic): 17% very likely, 45% somewhat likely, for a total of 62%

U-3 (neutral): 23% very likely, 63% somewhat likely, for a total of 86%

U-2 (receptive): 46% very likely, 51% somewhat likely, for a total of 97%

U-1 (highly receptive): 52% very likely, 45% somewhat likely, for a total of 97%

I disagree with Rainer's findings and find that more persons are U-4 and U-5 than he thought from the research. I arrived at my private conclusions based on what was not quantified in the study, i.e., the number of flat-out rejected calls -- persons who would not speak about their faith base at all for any reason, whether positive or negative.

That being said, I tend to agree with the concept of the scale in that God is working to effectually draw some to salvation and they may be at any point along the continuum in their progress unkown to us or even at times to themselves.

 

[OldRegular]

I thought it was the role of the Holy Spirit to do the persuading not some "communicator"!

 

[mont974x4]

We would be elected by God beforehand, then justified, and progressively sanctified!

I would change your word "sanctified" to "cleansed", or perhaps "grows into the image of Christ". This is a work that continues as the Holy Spirit reveals our sin. we are already sanctified.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB)

 

[convicted1]

I thought it was the role of the Holy Spirit to do the persuading not some "communicator"!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: