Entropy - "again"

EF The problem is in trying to isolate a single part of the whole (and ignore del S universe). If you want to argue that the bulk of energy fueling life on earth comes from within the solar system, well ok. In your learned scientific opinion then, why would 2lot preclude evolution within our solar system? The whole 2lot argument against evolution is absurd in the highest degree.

 

The initial energy comes from the gravitational potential in the original cloud, the energy contained with its atoms, and any energy from molecular bonds between these atoms. As the cloud collapses, the solar system forms, etc. this original enery is used to perform work. Performing that work implies an increase in entropy.

If entropy prevented that "random" cloud from creating something like a solar system, it would also prevent it from collapsing into a "random" lump.

-Neil

 

Sometimes order is just our human sense of what we think order is. Examples of "order" from disorder in nature . . .

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Some order is not so orderly upon closer examination. For instance, the orbits of planets around the sun are ellipsis rather than perfect circles. Eight of the planets' orbits are pretty much on the same plane, but do vary. Of course, Pluto/Charon are on a much more elliptical orbit and quite a bit off the plane of the solar system. These observations are consistent with planets coalescing from a rotating cloud of gas, dust & debris. Leftover interplanetary "junk" is further evidence of this, as well as a disorderly system.

Our view of order is largely a human construct. We seek patterns and order from disorder...it is our nature. That is why we see things in the shapes of clouds, why we see a "face" on a mountain of Mars, a man in the moon, and constellations representative of earthly objects.

 

BobRyan's challenge:

First let me translate this into a reasonable challenge. We must show where, in the relative lack of entropy we see in the orderly formation of planetary orbits and the development of orgnized life, the corresponding disorder was that must have happened. Where did the extra entropy go? Having properly expressed the question, we reveal the answer. The extra entropy was radiated off into space as infrared radiation. The same process sheds extra entropy from earth to this very day.

It is the expansion of the universe that makes this possible. As the universe expands, it makes more room for entropy. The total entropy always increases, but the average entropy per cubic light year can decrease because more cubic light years are being created as the universe expands.

 

Kudos, Paul; a succinct and accurate explanation.

-Neil

 

Well, the explanation may work fine for non-Christians, gentlemen, but please consider that in the Christian frame of reference, regardless of the age of anything, it was God who created the first order and organization. It is possible that before sin there may have been a balance between organization and disorganization (if you will permit me to use those terms...) -- and that after sin entropy took over. I don't know. I don't suppose anyone but God does. But we know the CREATION is in BONDAGE to decay now, and that means that entropy reigns.

It was not always so. There was a moment of creation...

 

(Hmmm, Neil scratches his chin). Helen, I don't necessarily agree that entropy and the theological concept of "in bondage to decay" are related. However, even if I did, it wouldn't prevent me from believing that order can spontaneously arise in one part of a system as a result of some other part of the system gaining entropy. I would believe that order could arise in both fallen and "unfallen" worlds, with the difference being that the fallen world must pay a price in entropy. It happens all the time.

In other words, even if I were a YEC, experience would tell me that order can spontaneously arise from disorder. My only argument would the be with the magnitude.

So I support Bob's right to be incredulous that a collapsing gas cloud can give rise to the order we see. I disagree, and so do most scientists and engineers, but it's his right. I disagree, however that there is no "down" in originally postulated gas cloud which would prevent order from arising.

-Neil

 

In my own mind, the bondage to decay does not mean that the law of entropy was any different for Adam in his unfallen state, rather that Adam was able, in his unfallen state, to supercede entropy on demand, for such purposes as preventing his own aging and death; a miracle in our terms. I'm not omnipotent and I look forward to a full explanation when I get to heaven and the conversation turns, finally, in that direction.