Eph 1:5

The Apostles were "CALLED OUT" (John 17), Yes, they were chosen before the foundation of the world to be "in Christ", to be taught by God the son, they were elected to their roles.

 

The Apostles were "CALLED OUT" (John 17), Yes, they were chosen before the foundation of the world to be "in Christ", to be taught by God the son, they were elected to their roles. </font>[/QUOTE]Very good wes.


Now how about the church? have you ever read 1st and 2nd peter? maybe you should

how about the lady elect..in 2 john...

paul also looks into the future and calls them that will believe the elect....what about that wes?

this is the 6th time i have asked for your comments. you never reply. you only move to the next tead and start again on..."the church is not the elect"

if you have time to start again..you have time to address these passages

sad

 

The way I read this passage, when Paul writes this portion of the letter to the Ephesians, he is stating that Gentiles, as well as Jews, were chosen from the foundation of the world to receive the blessing of the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. It is not Scriptural evidence of unconditional election, IMO. </font>[/QUOTE] Amen!

 

The Apostles were "CALLED OUT" (John 17), Yes, they were chosen before the foundation of the world to be "in Christ", to be taught by God the son, they were elected to their roles. </font>[/QUOTE]Very good wes.


Now how about the church? have you ever read 1st and 2nd peter? maybe you should

how about the lady elect..in 2 john...

paul also looks into the future and calls them that will believe the elect....what about that wes?

this is the 6th time i have asked for your comments. you never reply. you only move to the next tead and start again on..."the church is not the elect"

if you have time to start again..you have time to address these passages

sad </font>[/QUOTE]I have never said "the church is not the elect"! NOT ONCE!

I have said that Paul in Ephesians 1:3-12 is describing the first church, the Apostles. Paul is describing the mystery of the church AND Salvation. Then in verse 13 and 14 PAUL tells the Ephesians that because they too have placed their trust in the Christ, that they are part of that church, and that they too are saved!

You read an awful lot into my posts that I don't put there.

 

Poor Paul. He wasn't a member of that first Church, therefore, Ephesians 1:3-12 doesn't apply to him.

Wes, when you are so far off base in limiting certain Scripture to the Apostles why should anyone accept your interpretation of Scripture, some of which you think is a myth?

 

Poor Paul. He wasn't a member of that first Church, therefore, Ephesians 1:3-12 doesn't apply to him.

Wes, when you are so far off base in limiting certain Scripture to the Apostles why should anyone accept your interpretation of Scripture, some of which you think is a myth? </font>[/QUOTE]OH YES PAUL WAS A MEMBER OF THE FIRST CHURCH, LOOK IN ACTS Chapter 9!

 

most put pauls salvation at around 34-35 ad
about 4-5 years after the crucifixion.

it would all depend on where you start and end the 1st church. it could really go either in the 1st...or 2nd

but it matters little to me.. the greek in the passage is clear. paul means him and the ones he addess when he says 'us". Those that were saved the week before...were before the writing were they not?. The blessing applies to all..is this not right? it is fears of election that make some twist this to match their faith.

so this silly view is way off base.

In Christ...james

 

Poor Paul. He wasn't a member of that first Church, therefore, Ephesians 1:3-12 doesn't apply to him.

Wes, when you are so far off base in limiting certain Scripture to the Apostles why should anyone accept your interpretation of Scripture, some of which you think is a myth? </font>[/QUOTE]OH YES PAUL WAS A MEMBER OF THE FIRST CHURCH, LOOK IN ACTS Chapter 9! </font>[/QUOTE]You mean there was no Church prior to Acts 9? You and ituttut need to get together!

 

Of course I always believed that the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem had over 3000 members.

 

Acts is history of the first church, and Paul is very much part of it even though he did not sit in lecture hall with the rest of the apostles, he was very much part of the first church, taking the Gospel to the Gentiles who became second generation believers. That is hearing the teachings of Jesus from the apostles, and not directly from Jesus.

 

well..i agree with you on that paul could be seen as in the 1st church.

but now you go to far wes. acts is more than just the history of the 1st church

Its the history of Christ post-resurrection ministry
the ascension
the descending (Holy Spirit)
Speading of the Gospel..in asia,europe and africa
and a story of missions

its more the history of the apostles..thus..the acts of the apostles

read and you will know. all 3000 + more (added to the church daily)..saved in acts was part of this church too.
the 3000 came before Paul was saved.

so once again..to say eph 1 is only apostles..is down right silly. the 1st time you said this wes..i laughed out loud.

now i know you better..and you just want your way...no bible is going to change you

 

Without the Apostles there would be no church! That is why in Eph 1:3-12 Paul, in describing the beginning of the church describes the elect as being those that were taken out of the world and given to Jesus. John 17 has Jesus saying the same thing! The parallel between Eph 1:3-12 and John 17:6-24 is clear. If you do not want to see that it is not my problem, It's been told.

 

Jarthur001

Wes says: It's been told.

That means it is engraved in stone!

 

Attempting to draw a strict parallel between the prayer of Jesus Christ for His Church and Paul's discussion of the Salvation of the Elect borders on the ridiculous. Even if you were correct it still would not limit the passage in Ephesians to the Apostles since the Prayer of Jesus Christ as recorded in John 17 is for the Church, not just the Apostles, or did you leave out verses 20-26 as one of those mythical passages? You have been told!

 

better said this way..

if wes wants to change the Bible meaning to fit his doctrine...he will


US...means paul and the church

wait wait wait....verse 12 says..those that 1st trusted
well hello...it does say that

and if this is the meaning as you say...

and its NOT

but lets play your silly little game...

if it is just those they CAME 1st...then paul is talking about himself...and all before him

the 3000 from one passage...added to the church daily....paul was saved 4-5 years later....you do the math how many were in the church before paul came along.

if we just stop at paul...and we do not....but if we did...this is way more then the apostles.


ppppppp..lease wes. just believe!! it is so simple if you do not fall for the lies

 

I do believe, just not the same as you.

The 3000 did not visit Ephesus. The 3000 did not spread the Gospel to the Gentiles, the 3000 may never have set foot outside of Israel. If the 3000 were typical of a modern day church, many of them would have fallen away by the time Paul came on the scene.

Your literalness does not account for what is normal for the churche. You have no proof they all stayed, nor do I that many may have left. What we do have is something by which we can compare "normalcy". If the numbers stated for the first church continued for 2000 years, there would by NO UNSAVED in the world today. Virtually all mankind would be saved. Do you see that all mankind are saved? NO! Then think it through friend, the reality is on my side of this discussion.

 

The 3000 did not visit Ephesus. The 3000 did not spread the Gospel to the Gentiles, the 3000 may never have set foot outside of Israel. If the 3000 were typical of a modern day church, many of them would have fallen away by the time Paul came on the scene.

Your literalness does not account for what is normal for the churche. You have no proof they all stayed, nor do I that many may have left. What we do have is something by which we can compare "normalcy". If the numbers stated for the first church continued for 2000 years, there would by NO UNSAVED in the world today. Virtually all mankind would be saved. Do you see that all mankind are saved? NO! Then think it through friend, the reality is on my side of this discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, your cop-out is that one can loss their salvation.

This is wrong...but none-the-less lets play this game

of the 3000 we need to add at least 1 each day for 4 years. There are passages to show there are more then just 1 a day. but lets go with the low number. Also it should be pointed out...we are going with the low number of years. most say 4-5 years to pauls salvation...but to be fair with you...lets go with 4

now this is only to the point of pauls salavtion. I stop it now..for in YOUR view the "1st church" stops then.

it should be noted that at the time of pauls letter
way after his salvation. Acts tells of his 1st trip there and it is dated as arounf 57-58 ad. The letter had to be past this date. Some date the letter as late as 80. I think 80 is to far...but i have no problem seeing it as late as 60-63ad. The reason i bring this out is that many more were in the church at this point.

so back to the numbers....

that is OVER 1400 using the LOW numbers. we again will round down to 1400 and add the 3000. now we have 4400 believers.

if 4000 lost their salvation..we would still have 400.

if 4350 lost their salvation..we would still have 50

any number you want to place is more then 12.


now the 2nd part is even more silly
"The 3000 did not visit Ephesus"

fine..then this means paul WAS talking to those he addressed...not the 12 apostles + 50 extra

no matter how you slice it wes...its not how you want to twist it

it was address to this one church...but paul mean for all the church.

"Us" means paul and those he addressed...which is part of the church......those in that believed in rome....it means me..those in china..and any one "US"..in the church.

all the blessing paul talks about is to the ALL the church..not the 12 +50


the end

 

How many of them fulfill prophesy?

The prophesy? They were taught by God.

There were 12 who were taught by God. One was of the devil, and he died, perhaps while God the son was undergoing Mock trial.

Now there are 11 remaining who were taught by God, that is they spent nearly all their time for 3 to 3.5 years in very close proximity to God the son.

Then Saul had direct contact by God the Son and he, by his own confession whether in the body or out of the body, paid a visit to Heaven where he was privileged to knowledge that few men get, so Yes, Paul was "taught by God". So in accordance with the knowledge that we are privileged to, there are only 12 who were actually "taught by God". There were actually more than that but the number remains relatively low.

Everyone else, including the 3000 you are so fond of, were taught by the apostles. Everyone else receives their Knowledge of the Holy, through the teaching of the Apostles,

The Ephesians are included in "those who through their teachings will come to believe in me".

By the way, I have never said that in Ephesians 1:3-12 that Paul is speaking TO the Apostles, but rather that he is speaking OFthe Apostles, those who were elected before the foundation of the world to be taught by God, who were given by the Father to the Son.

The Holy Spirit comes to those who believe in God, and teaches them in accordance with the knowledge that they already possess, and guides them to all the knowledge so that their faith will increase. And our faith is based on the Knowledge that we have, not what we don't have.

The 11 were already the church before the 3000 became part of the church. It was through Peter's sermon, the speaking in divers tongues by the rest, and the coming of the Holy Spirit, that the 3000 became believers. The fact that the 3000 did not visit Ephesus does not mean that the Apostles did not visit Ephesus. We do not have much in the way of recorded history about the daily affairs of the individual Apostles, their comings and goings. But by comparison with modern society with its enhanced mobility, we must consider that the 3000 did not immediately disperse and run to Ephesus.

So I remain unswayed by your argument that Ephesians 1:3-12 is what you say, and you remain unswayed that it is what I say! That puts us right back at the 1st post, plus much typing of useless information between then and now.

Let's end this.

 

I have been, but you are not listening!