Eph 1:5

well wes. you are right. We should never try to "sway"..even thou i think you will agree.in a debate we often do try. I have done this..i know

The debate should be, us standing up for what we view as right. These last few post by you, have not posted attacks as i often claim you do. So that being said i need to point out you are NOT trying to just fight on these last post..(thanks)....but only sharing your view.

One day God will tell us all.....right wes?

In Christ...James

 

I have been, but you are not listening! </font>[/QUOTE]

 

wes,

we have been over john 17 before. I'll say a few more things..and not the full passage as i posted before.

in john 17 after you read verse 6...read the whole passage. Christ keeps on with his praying....look at 20-24

christ is still pray..and he adds...
20) neither pray I for those alone .....but also others that have faith.
21) that they all maybe ONE...just as thee are ONE God...ONE CHURCH..together
22) the glory may be ONE...one church...together
23) I in the them (the CHURCH)..and thou (the Father) in me(Christ) ONE..together
23)...Father i want ALL of us in heaven (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, apostles, the church)....together

In Christ....james

 

Jarthur001, As always you misquote scripture. for example John 17:20 does not say

It says,

Based on what you've posted, you should throw your version of the bible away!

 

It says,

Based on what you've posted, you should throw your version of the bible away! </font>[/QUOTE]read my post again wes ol boy.

i said i was not posting the full passage..only adding my notes.

if you want to see my full view..read what i posted before.

 

let the reader see...and let them know

amp
20Neither for these alone do I pray [it is not for their sake only that I make this request], but also for all those who will ever come to believe in (trust in, cling to, rely on) Me through their word and teaching,

21That they all may be one, [just] as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me.

22I have given to them the glory and honor which You have given Me, that they may be one [even] as We are one:

23I in them and You in Me, in order that they may become one and perfectly united, that the world may know and [definitely] recognize that You sent Me and that You have loved them [even] as You have loved Me.


you use the NIV..do you not wes?
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.


NASB anyone??
20"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

21that they may all be one; (AU)even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, (AV)so that the world may believe that (AW)You sent Me.

22"The (AX)glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

23(AY)I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that (AZ)You sent Me, and (BA)loved them, even as You have loved Me.


ESV
20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.


ALL OF THEM SAY THE SAME.

 

All the versions you posted say that in verse 20 Jesus is praying for those who will come to believe on the basis of the Apostle's teachings!

That is my point in relation to Eph 1:3-12 and it's parallel to John 17:1-26. In Ephesians Paul is speaking of the foundation of the church in those Elect of God, the Apostles. In John 17 Jesus Prays for those elect of God, that the Father will protect them in this world, and that through their teachings many will come to believe in Jesus. It is not until Eph 1:13,14 that Paul includes the Ephesian believers into that church!

 

oh i know what you said. it was stange then..its stange now...AND DOES NOT LINE UP


its another one of your..i'll take this verse..and pass over this verse

the apostles are US.up to the point it hurts my doctrine...so then change this to church.. and to prove this..look at john...for you can not see it till you look at john..cause its really not here.


i see the church..all the way wes

eph 1 US = church
john 17 ONE = church

one other thing. john really has nothing to do with pauls letter. paul is addressing a Church...and john is address Christ praying to keep his own.

 

The event in John occured, by your calculations at least 5 years before Saul became Paul. A Fact that requires one to view Paul as referencing John and not the other way around.

Jesus speaks of the church in future terms, while Paul looks back to the beginning of the church.

 

Jarthur001

As far as I know Wes has never revealed what version of the Bible he is using. I have checked many versions and none seems to agree with his. Perhaps he has his own translation. He might as well since he certainly does not accept any Scripture posted.

 

Much of the time he is using the "New Jerusalem" bible... very bad.

 

In a Bible college, we were forced to purchase and use the Berkley Bible~ I threw mine out as soon as I finished Dr. Bowen's classes.

 

Just learn Greek and Latin and throw away all English versions! It was good enough for the puritans, it's good enough for me! For English though... I like the ESV.

 

i just started reading the ESV. Very good translation.