Eph 1:5

You've missed it too!

In Eph 1:3-12 Paul is telling his reader about the foundation of the Christian Church IN THE APOSTLES who were taught by God the Son. Jesus confirms that in John 17:1-21 His prayer. He speaks of how the Apostles have come to believe the truth, then later in the prayer, he prays for all who will come to faith through the teachings of the Apostles. The Ephesians that Paul is writing to are in this latter category as we are today in the same category. We recieve the teachings of the Apostles, and arrive at Saving FAITH in Jesus Christ through their teachings. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, as taught by the Apostles.

The Ephesians arrived at their faith through the teachings of the Apostles, regarless of who's mouth did the teaching. Paul's letter provides the Ephesians with a record of the teaching that He himself received from God and the other Apostles. It also provides us with the basis of our faith, and the Christian lifestyle we should be living. All teachings of the Apostles about the Christ!

The whole point is that in verse 3-12 Paul is introducing the church built upon the Apostles belief in who and what Jesus is. then in 13 he tells the Ephesians that through their faith they too are the children of God.

 

Ephesians 1:5 (KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Something to think about.

 

So, you imagine salvation is based on a judicial act, man having done the right thing being the essential cause of salvation? Man's merit earns the free gift? Is man sovereign over God? What does "By grace are ye saved" mean? Does it mean "Man must do the right thing?" What about the verses that show faith to be a work? Is salvation to be earned by human work? Does God love those that shall eternally be separated from Him the same as he loves those that shall be saved? In the Bible, Is it man, or instead God that predestines?

: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand; especially : PREDESTINATE 1

Romans 8:29 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 (KJV) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 (KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 (KJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

It is a matter of obedience to God. God told man to HAVE FAITH in God, and especially in God the Son. You stupidly call man's obedience of God's command "a judicial act". Then you go on to say,

First, By grace...saved, means that God is being gracious so that man can be SAVED THROUGH FAITH. And that "NOT OF OURSELVES, SALVATION is a gift of God, Not of works (not earned) lest any man should boast.
So Grace is the condition God operates by, while faith is the condition that man must have to receive God's free gift of salvation.
As for merit? You are a mere mortal who has no understanding of faith. You call faith something of merit that man earns. God describes FAITH as something freely acquired. FAITH is not a tradeable or transferable commodity, nor does it have any intrinsic value. You cannot cash-in your faith for anything so faith is not the same as "currency". You cannot give to me in transference, one iota of the faith you possess, All you can do is gain or lose the faith your have. The only way that you can demonstrate that you have faith is through your actions. Faith in God is exactly the same kind of faith that you have in country and fellow man, or any object that you have faith in. The source for faith in God is the book we call the bible. You cannot get faith in God from any other source, than the word of God.

If you have in mind John 6:29, then you have most assuredly misinterpreted scripture.

If it is God's work as God the Son declares, then it is a finished work of God requiring nothing from man but to believe in the one God sent to dwell amongst man. This verse of scripture does not declare faith to be a work!

God loves all mankind, but in his love he destroys those who become corrupt as mankind did before the flood, and as Sodom and Gomorrah did.

God's love is so universal that he did all the work of our salvation, leaving us with nothing to do, thus we cannot "earn" our salvation. All that man can do is believe. If you believe, and continue to believe, placing your trust in the promise of Salvation to come, then at the judgment you will not face God in shame because you believe in his son, just as God commanded you to do. If you do not believe in God or God the son, then God has nothing to give you except being cast into the lake of fire.

It is a matter of having faith which you cannot earn, but can acquire, just like knowledge. Salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast of "earning" salvation. Grace, while God is being gracious, is not a transferable commodity, God does not give his grace to man, but instead, man lives because God is being gracious to man.

 

These two scriptures are Paul speaking of the Apostles! Read John 17:1-19 Jesus is describing the twelve. Verse 20 Jesus opens up his prayer to included those who have come to faith in Jesus through the teachings of the Apostles.

In Ephesians 1, Paul opens up his introduction to his letter to include all of the believing Ephesians in verse 13 and and 14, not before.

You delight in taking scripture out of its context and making a whole doctrine from them, the doctrine of election....a FALSE DOCTRINE!

 

Hello Wes.

EPH 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

I think that answers your error Wes what do you think?

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

He speaks to God's children.

john.

 

Johnp,
It is really sad that you cannot comprehend what you are reading.

Eph 1:1,2 is Paul's typical salutation to his reader, 3-12 is Paul's introduction to his topic which is the Mystery of Salvation and of the Church. In 3-12 he describes the foundation of the Christian church, establishing the fact for the Ephesians that the Apostles are God's elect for the purpose of building the Christ's church. He tells them the purpose, and identifies the players, and their relationship to the founder....GOD's PLAN OF SALVATION!

Then in verse 13, 14 Paul tells the Ephesians that because they have heard and believed, that through their faith, they too are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Then in 15-23 he speaks of Jesus' triumph and Supremacy.

 

So, you imagine salvation is based on a judicial act, man having done the right thing being the essential cause of salvation? Man's merit earns the free gift? Is man sovereign over God? What does "By grace are ye saved" mean? Does it mean "Man must do the right thing?" What about the verses that show faith to be a work? Is salvation to be earned by human work? Does God love those that shall eternally be separated from Him the same as he loves those that shall be saved? In the Bible, Is it man, or instead God that predestines?

</font>[/QUOTE]bob...no I think you may have added to my words there. I said i believe i can hold to the statement posted. lets look at it again and see.

bear in mind...this is from mans view point

“whoever hears the gospel always has the opportunity of being saved. “

yes...calvin would call this the general calling.so.ok so far


“The conclusion of what we have said about the predestination is that God is not unrighteous and He may do what He wants; and that the election and predestination is a sovereign act, in which man does not intervene nor do his works. “

ok...in this part i can see where the guy that wrote this is holding back somewhat. but still...it is true. God is in control..God is not unrighteous..God can do as He wills. man does not intervene in Gods work. sounds good to me.

“But nor may anybody conclude that anyone is excluded from the plan of salvation, because everyone who believes will be saved”

this is true too...when the writer added..”because everyone who believes will be saved”...he is telling us what he means. so yes..any one that believes is saved. the elect are the believes they are saved. The unsaved do not believe...therefore we call them..non-believers


"By Him (Jesus Christ) everyone who believes is justified (Acts 13:39)"

true


"and: The righteousness of God is revealed through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe (Romans 3:21, 22). "

true...all that believe are the elect

“The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes (Romans 1:16)”

true again

"Everybody who wants to be saved, may"

yes....if you follow what was said above. God wants all to be saved...and will not turn any away. in Gods call...it is to all....and God means all. so yes they MAY. but none will come to Him....so we have election


“There is a famous phrase from Augustine, who wrote a lot about this subject: "If you are not predestined, make yourself predestined." “

ok...this is a call to mankind.

that is the statement. True there are a few things one can take many ways. But i gave the guy the benefit of doubt ...so not to bad. it could be said stronger.....but still...not bad


that is how i read it...you may disagree.


In Christ...james

 

Hello Wes.

EPH 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father...Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us...
Are you saying the first 'us' is meant only of the apostles;
For he chose 'us'... Or you saying the second one is?
Which ever it is nonsense. The statements made are to the Church in general.

john.

 

§

James said: bob...no I think you may have added to my words there. I said i believe i can hold to the statement posted. lets look at it again and see.

Bob’s Observation: I certainly don’t want to add to your words. When you think that has happened, and you have reason to accuse me of that it would be helpful if you would point it out with quotes to show how I have done that, so I can correct the behaviour. As it is I don’t see how I have added to what you said, but perhaps I am missing that.

Thank you for clarifying what you said by answering the questions.

There are just a few things I will comment on regarding your clarification.

TexasSky said: “But nor may anybody conclude that anyone is excluded from the plan of salvation, because everyone who believes will be saved”

James said: this is true too...when the writer added..”because everyone who believes will be saved”...he is telling us what he means. so yes..any one that believes is saved. the elect are the believes they are saved. The unsaved do not believe...therefore we call them..non-believers

Bob’s Observation: I don’t find in the TexasSky comments where it says “the elect are the believes they are saved” or in other words that election is of God. Therefore, regarding the elect, by reading the TexasSky comments (not the link itself) it is not shown if the elect are elect a result of their own decision, or if they are elect because God has chosen them in Christ before the foundation of the world, and not according to their having done good or evil. (Not the link, I have not examined that), but regarding the original comments by TexasSky (said to be representative of the link), I think they are double talk, worded obscurely. There is nothing to show if the efficient cause of salvation is God’s mercy apart from any response of man, or instead man’s decision apart from special intervention of God.

Romans 9:18 (KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Romans 9:21 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

TexasSky said: "and: The righteousness of God is revealed through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe (Romans 3:21, 22). "

James said: true...all that believe are the elect

Bob’s Observation: Because of the uncertainty of the wording of the comments as a whole, it is not shown if salvation is of the Lord based on election before the foundation of the earth, not based on man having done good or evil, or instead is based on man’s decision apart from special intervention of God is the efficient cause of salvation.

TexasSky said: "Everybody who wants to be saved, may"

James said: but none will come to Him....so we have election

Bob’s Observation: I do not find (“but none will come to Him....so we have election”) in the TexasSky comments, not in the brief quotation or in the TexasSky comments as a whole.

TexasSky said: “There is a famous phrase from Augustine, who wrote a lot about this subject: "If you are not predestined, make yourself predestined." “

James said: ok...this is a call to mankind.

Bob’s Observation: I do not know how Augustine intended those words to be understood, but more importantly, God predestinates man; man does not predestinate, so as the words are shown the words do not agree with the testimony of Scripture.

Copied from Webster’s 1828: predestination, n. The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass. It is used particularly in theology to denote the preordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery.
Predestination is a part of the unchangeable plan of the divine government; or in other words, the unchangeable purpose of an unchangeable God.

James said: True there are a few things one can take many ways. But i gave the guy the benefit of doubt ...so not to bad. it could be said stronger.....but still...not bad

Observation: (Not the link, I have not examined that), but regarding the original comments by TexasSky (said to be representative of the link), I think they are double talk, worded obscurely, for reasons I have pointed out.

Also, TexasSky is female, not a guy

§

by grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

EPH 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father...Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us...
Are you saying the first 'us' is meant only of the apostles;
For he chose 'us'... Or you saying the second one is?
Which ever it is nonsense. The statements made are to the Church in general.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]I am saying that beginning in verse 3, Paul is introducing his topic which is 'the mystery of salvation and the church' to the Ephesians. As such, in verses 3-12 Paul is explaining to the Ephesians the very beginnings of the Church. He is not including the Ephesians until verse 13, where he specifically includes them as recipients of the word of God which they accepted and believed and have placed their trust in and thus are sealed by the Holy Spirit of God!

The 'US' is the Apostles who were given to Jesus by the Father, and who were the only ones directly taught by God for 3 1/2 years, and who's teachings the Ephesians heard and accepted!

I've posted the whole of verses 3-14 several times, at least once in this topic. Open your mind and Go read it. Understand that this letter to the Ephesians is probably written a decade or two AFTER the ascention of the Christ. The Ephesians never knew the Christ until the Apostles taught them. So "The Beginnings" would be of historical significance in the understanding of the mystery of Salvation and the church.

 

Hello Wes.

How can that be? EPH 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
They are included from the beginning what are you talking about? ...to you from God our Father...

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
You have colon trouble again I fear just as you do with John 6:29.

He is not including the Ephesians until verse 13... But even if that was true verse 13 actually includes the Ephesians with the apostles, And you also... And you also like us.

john.

 

How can that be? EPH 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
They are included from the beginning what are you talking about? ...to you from God our Father...

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
You have colon trouble again I fear just as you do with John 6:29.

He is not including the Ephesians until verse 13... But even if that was true verse 13 actually includes the Ephesians with the apostles, And you also... And you also like us.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Have you no understanding?

Look at all of Paul's letters! In every one of them he opens with a very similar greeting! (Eph 1:1,2). And don't lose sight of the fact that NOT one of Paul's letters is addressed to an unbeliever. He wrote to believers only!

Now, think about verse 3, Who received the spiritual gifts, who had power to heal, and to perform miracles, you know the real spiritual blessings? We don't see those gifts in use very much in modern times now do we? Neither did the Ephesians! So who is Paul talking about when he speaks of "spiritual blessings"?

Yes, of course we all are blessed in spirit because of the promise of our salvation. Our faith in God is based on that promise!

 

yes....she is female. But i'm missing your point on this. Is it because i called the writer "he"? if so..let me explain why. if not..please help me to understand your point

i used "he wrote"...for TexasSky did not write that post. She posted it...but this writing came from the link she posted. Some guy..not sure his name...wrote it. look on the link if you want to know his name. The link is some light reading..nothing deep..but covers a lot of things. some good...some not so good.

also one thing more you may want to see if you go to the link....this is just one of many pages this guy wrote. I read nearly the whole site on "steps". crazy?..yeah maybe. hey...i like to know what others think about things like this.

I'm not sure if Texas has read it...for there are many things on the site that Texas does not believe going by othe post. But..that's ok..i do not take all of calvin. you take what is good...and chuck the rest.

You may not feel as i do bob. I can understand that. But i know from other post you make, we are very close in the faith we uphold. I feel that maybe you are reading more into that one post then is there, because it comes from Texas. Maybe not....but that is what i feel

I have talked to texas many times....and believe you me..i know where she stands on this issue. It is far from what i hold. yet...if i read the statement and not think of who posted it...it is ok to me.

It is weak....yes i have said that too. there are things left out. But i see no wrong. Yet a post like this was a MAJOR step from what Texas post on this issue. This showed more insight on the subject then any other post i have seen from her before.

Now i must add...some of this is because i do not hold to the freewill of man as she...but i hold to grace from God.

Yes..if you consider other post Texas has made..then you can read this another way. I tried not to do this...and found it a GOOD post. I think you saw it as the same ol thing...i can understand that.

Bob..believe me..we are very close on most issues in this area. I'm just giving Texas a break...and hope she keeps looking at Gods word...and not mans logic.

you may disagree with me..that is ok. but please do not take that i have chucked Gods grace for mans will by saying that was a good statement. ok?

In Christ...James

 

Hello Wes.

Apparently I have none.

What's that to do with anything?

Have you become a Calvinist?

What in Ephesians 1:3? No one did! Not in verse three anyway verse three says, EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Nothing about gifts man. Spiritual gifts might be a blessing but it was not for the Corinthians.
Who received every spiritual blessing Wes? 'Us' wasn't it.

Elijah was a man just like me. It is God that heals not man. I have received every spiritual blessing Wes.

God it is that performs miracles not men.

You change scripture wherever it suits you don't you?.

What gifts Wes? He is talking of blessings.

john.

 

Johnp,
Describe some blessings so that I know where you are coming from.