Eph 1:5

Hello Salamander.

Why do you not believe that Jacob is elect of God and Esau was not elect of God? It's explicit in the text.

RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Just trying to leave a dismissive air about the place? We use scripture. Where's yours?
Why do you not believe that Jacob is elect of God and Esau was not elect of God? It's explicit in the text.

john.

 

Just trying to leave a dismissive air about the place? We use scripture. Where's yours?
Why do you not believe that Jacob is elect of God and Esau was not elect of God? It's explicit in the text.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Technically according to the scripture, Jacob AND Esau were "elect". By "electing" one and not "electing" the other, you are automatically "electing" the end results for the other. God also "elected" Pharaoh, Judas, Pilate, Mary, the disciples, etc. for His purpose.

 

Hello webdog.

That's why I am supralapsarian. But your language is just as bad as mine for how can you elect by not electing?
The word 'election' is never used but for the saints, though I believe that it is an active reprobation so since He chose me to live He chose Esau to die the death. But the word 'election' is not used for those perishing or getting the jobs to do as far as I know. If you know some scripture that uses the word elect in that way let me know please.

To elect an end result would mean that you made a choice from available options and normally we say that is making up our minds to act in certain ways to bring about a desired outcome. We don't call it electing the future.

john.

 

Israel also was "elect". Israel was God's own chosen people. Qualifies as "elect" to me, just because the word "elect" does not appear. Are all jews past, present and future, going to heaven? Why not, then, since they were an "elect" of God?

 

Webdog,
You misapply the term. Though Israel is "elect" AS a nation. The PURPOSE was to evangelize the world through the nation, not specifically for SALVATION. Israel believed (and still does believe) since they have the law, THEY because of their RACE are saved. This is the whole point that Paul was making! NOT ALL of Israel is Israel! The salvific election is THE PROMISE! And then he further explains the PRICIPLE of how He did it, through election NOT by your race or by your WORKS. It is solely on the purpose of God's will and intention.

 

Both Jacob and Esau were Elect of God!

How many other twins are written of so extensively in the bible?

 

How was Esau Elect?

[11] Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: [12] not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." [13] Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14] What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! [15] For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

 

Hello webdog.

As a nation not individuals. Esau was part of Israel.

The word does not need to appear to make it so but it ain't so for individuals.
RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

Hello Wes.

Show me a scripture that says so Wes. You have none but you have the opposite. Jacob I loved Esau I hated.

john.

 

Sal, are you saying that a person becomes elect after salvation?

That can not be.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [NKJV](emphasis mine)

 

Sal, are you saying that a person becomes elect after salvation?

That can not be.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [NKJV](emphasis mine) </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Verse 4. According as he hath chosen us in him
As he has decreed from the beginning of the world, and has kept in view from the commencement of the religious system of the Jews, (which the phrase sometimes means,) to bring us Gentiles to the knowledge of this glorious state of salvation by Christ Jesus. The Jews considered themselves an elect or chosen people, and wished to monopolize the whole of the Divine love and beneficence. The apostle here shows that God had the Gentiles as much in the contemplation of his mercy and goodness as he had the Jews; and the blessings of the Gospel, now so freely dispensed to them, were the proof that God had thus chosen them, and that his end in giving them the Gospel was the same which he had in view by giving the law to the Jews, viz. that they might be holy and without blame before him. And as his object was the same in respect to them both, they should consider that, as he loved them, so they should love one another: God having provided for each the same blessings, they should therefore be αγιους, holy-fully separated from earth and sin, and consecrated to God and αμωμους, without blame-having no spot nor imperfection, their inward holiness agreeing with their outward consecration. The words are a metaphor taken from the perfect and immaculate sacrifices which the law required the people to bring to the altar of God. But as love is the fulfilling of the law, and love the fountain whence their salvation flowed, therefore love must fill their hearts towards God and each other, and love must be the motive and end of all their words and works. ACC

 

Sal, are you saying that a person becomes elect after salvation?

That can not be.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [NKJV](emphasis mine) </font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]He chose the APOSTLES in JESUS before the foundation of the world, and that is what PAUL is telling the Ephesians in 1:3-12. You missinterpret the scripture by makeing that passage cover everyone.

The confirmation is found in John 17 where Jesus refers to the Apostles as those that the Father gave to Jesus. Jesus acknowledged that All belong to the Father, but that the father has given Some to the Son. Jesus also say in John 17 that his prayer is for the APOSTLES, and then in about verse 20 he says that he also prays for those who will come to believe in him through THEIR teachings.

WE ARE THOSE who come to believe in Jesus through the Apostles teachings. NOT one of US, not even the EPHESIANS, are the Elect that PAUL is telling the Ephesians about.

You are welcome to prove me wrong, but I've been here for a couple decades and I don't believe there is a single scripture, IN ITS CONTEXT, that refutes what I've just said.

 

Wes,
You've been corrected on this text before. It is very wrong. Please understand Paul is talkig DIRECTLY to the church and the pronouns are toward them unless explicitly stated otherwise by being NAMED. Paul doesn't talk about the apostles anywhere and it is an elementary error on your part to induce such a silly notion.

In Romans 9 again, Paul is not stressing national differences OR national or individual salvation in the early context of the chapter but is EMPHASIZING the PRINCIPLE. That principle is God elects BEFORE time and His ELECTION is just and free. It is not based on WHO you are or WHAT you do but SOLELY on the divine Providence, and council of His will

 

rc is very right Wes. You would be very hard pressed to find even Arminians that would say this is speaking of the Apostles.

Eph. was written to the local church at Ephuses. Typical Christians were his audience, not the Apostles. The entire context of the passage is addressed to the Ephsians. Notice verse 1-4 in context.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,...

The saints at Ephesus were his audience. Believers like me are the ones elcet before the foundations of the earth.

 

The saints in Ephesus were hearing Paul explain God's plan of salvation in verses 3-12.

It's little wonder you stay calvinist, you refuse the truth!

 

And unconditional election was part of that plan.

You said truth is relative, so it really dosen't matter what I beleive right?

 

Were the 12 just random selection by Jesus? or were they chosen IN HIM from the foundation of the world?

Was it simply coincidence that Jesus went to where the first called were working, or did Jesus know where they would be?

Was it a simple "drive-by, random selection" when Jesus chose the tax collector?

Jesus knew exactly who to call for service because he knew them from the foundation of the world, they were 'IN HIM' from the foundation of the world.

 

Again SAlamander if you read just a few more words your argument falls on its face. For the election happened while EVERYBODY was unsaved. It was BEFORE the foundations of the world that He elected us IN HIM. And there is no mandate or even a contrivance of "in him" means you were NOT "in him", all this shows is the subject of the one choosing for adoption. It is IN CHRIST, not buddha, plato, but in CHRIST. The focus is not "where" you where or are but focuses on WHO did the election.

 

Assuming we are still talking of Ephesians 1:1-14, rc, you are quite simply ignoring the plain truth of the scripture. You are desparately holding on to a scripture out of scriptures that when removed from its context seems to support you false doctrine of Election. However in context, which is supported by other books and chapters of the bible, that verse you are so fond of does not support your doctrine of general election.