Eph 1:5

Do you honestly think rc dosen't open his Bible outside of church?

I would think his understanding of Scriptures that he has displayed show like wise. He seems to know what he is speaking about.

The one's in peril are those who believe they know more than every one else, and ignore the thousands of years of godly teaching throughout church history.

The ones in peril are those who believe that that Scripture should not be understood with a literal conservative hermenutic, and that truth is relative.

 

4his_glory,
Did I say that? If I did not say that, then I don't think that, why do you? Are you antagonizing?

Then You do not understand "peril", the scriptures are made simple to confound the wise!

 

The "Wise" there is meant "proud". Therefore you must be very confounded Wes. The traditions and teachings at the time were the OLD Testament. And they where TAUGHT. They were also handed down to their students... Do you know any of Johns "students" Wes.... Do you know who they where or what they taught?

 

What does that have to do with anything?

 

Hello Wes.

Do you mean then that when a person reads the word elect then he should understand the meaning to be chosen?
Do you mean then that when a person reads the word redeemed then he should understand the meaning to be owned?
Do you mean then that when a person reads the word grace then he should understand the meaning to be favour?
Do you mean then that when a person reads the word predestination then he should understand the meaning to be that his destiny is chosen before the creation of the world?
Do you mean then that when a person reads the word justified then he should understand the meaning to be justified?
When you read "I am the Good Shepherd" are we to believe that the Good Shepherd means that He will lose none of those sheep or that the sheep may do as they like?
Your words Wes are meaningless because you do not attach the meaning the word has in reality but what you want it to mean that you attach and argue about.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

john.

 

as i read it...

verse 1,2
Paul..by the will of God...grace and peace to you.

3...
We (the Church).are blessed

4...
we are blessed...for He choose us (election)

5...
we are blessed for he predestinated us (this is not election)

6...
we are blessed for He made us accepted

7...
we are blessed for He redeemed us

8...
we are blessed for he gave us wisdom and prudence

9, 10...
we are blessed for he made known unto us the mystery of His will..(understanding of God)

11, 12..
we are blessed for he gives us inheritance. (comes from being predestined..but is not the point)

13, 14...
we are blessed for he seals us

end of 1st part.

election is only brought up one time verse 4. maybe 2 times..if you went to push it in verse 1.

it can be said that verse 9 is election, but this only tells what happens at election.

at any rate...predestintion is what happens after election....and should not be said it is the same as election

ok..now i'll set back down and let other talk..


In Christ..James

 

It is recorded that the Apostles performed "miracles" that the Spirit within them empowered.

God the father chose the 12 and Gave them to Jesus (john 17:6-9)

God assigned the 12 a predetermined role, thus they were predestined to that role.

The Christ atoned for sin, thus they...and we, are justified by the Christ and are therefore accepted by God the father.

Took them out of the world and gave them new direction.

They were Taught by God!

 

We are bless. We means both Paul..those that he addressed. or to us the words...choose us..us is paul and those he addressed.

or maybe you think paul is rubbing this in the face of others showing he is chosen and they are not...and the blessing he talks about do not apply to others...just to him..so paul in his pride wants to point this out to make them feel bad.

How do you get past this wes?

 

wes brother,

Lets say john 17 is just as you say. I think it is more..as you know. I feel there are others saved at this point and this covers them too.

But using your own words....just as Christ prayed in 17 6-9 say God gave them to Christ. Chrsit would keep them. without stopping he looks forward in the same passage...the same pray and says..

   20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.


notice 24....Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me.

they also...who is they?

the ones from above verse 20 only? or both those above verse 20..and those below 20?

if you say this is only above 20..and this only is Apostles as you see it...then are you also saying that Christ is not praying that others come to be with him but only Apostles?

if this is both "groups" as you split them...that he prays for..then THEY are given also....are they not?


CONTEXT IS KING

I'm done for the day

 

We are bless. We means both Paul..those that he addressed. or to us the words...choose us..us is paul and those he addressed.

or maybe you think paul is rubbing this in the face of others showing he is chosen and they are not...and the blessing he talks about do not apply to others...just to him..so paul in his pride wants to point this out to make them feel bad.

How do you get past this wes? </font>[/QUOTE]By ignoring it.

 

In verse 6 through 9, "we" means the apostles, the first generation believers! It does not mean the Ephesians because verse 13,14 is where the Ephesians are included by Paul.

It is really hard for some to accept the truth even when it is presented to them, sort of "in your face".

Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in your belief!

 

Look in the mirror.

 

Verse 1&2 typical Pauline greeting to his recipient.

verse 3 through 12, Pauline explanation of the mystery of the church and salvation. Always start at the beginning Paul, it confuses the dickens out of some.

Verse 13 and 14, inclusion of Pauls recipients into that mysterious church by means of their faith in Jesus which is their Mysterious Salvation.

 

Good night rc!

 

Broken records (and broken theology) puts me to sleep.

 

Hello Salamander.

Oh He is a Tyrant that is what He calls Himself.

john.

 

Considering I have no "dickens" in me, it would be real hard for that statemwent to hold absolute truth.

When one address a letter to some one, the "we" carries that conotation to mean the one addressed in that inclusion, unless of course the one addressed is directly omitted by a previous clause to state that as a declarative.

You're trying to create a doctrine by the use of a theological opinion, but even the rules of grammar object to your theology.

Which if those who dogmatize their theologies would infuse proper grammatical rules, their opinions would not be as dogmatic as previously thought.

It is rather simple to understand the problems with Calvinism: first one has to understand that men create doctrines that only can be understood by a limited use of only certain scriptures to delegate authpority over other scriptures that directly oppose their ideals, thus having to limit definition and to even redifne certain words found in those same scriptures.

God never created one soul to go to hell, but by an individual's choice to reject Christ, they ultimately go there, else God is a tyrant, which He is NOT!

The finite mind cannot explain the infinite, though mere men try their darndest to explain the thoughts and intents of God by their inventions of doctrine. </font>[/QUOTE]This shows a Twisted view of calvin. It would seem once again you are yet another person that has not study this on your own and only read books that bash calvin not knowing what is said by him.

It is true that many take this to far. But that can be said by both sides. You have shown you take this to far with the statement you post above.

The history of the debate goes far beyond what calvin, Zwingli, bucer, luther said. This group look at salvation From the eyes of God. They focused on Gods will. God is in control.

Jacob Arminius and study the Bible too...but started with Gods love. God loved all world so he came. This was a fosus on salvation from the eyes of man.

Both have points to consider, but one passes over many facts of God that needs to be considered. If we start with God in control...we will end with God in control. If we start with man in control...we will end with man in control.

Therefore...it was in these paths that both wrote.

Calvin says..
God saves...God Keeps.

Arminius says..
man choose to come to God....man choose to leave God

Some want to have it both ways.

Some want to say...man chooses...then God keeps.

This never holds up in the Bible One has much more support saying man is in control then both are in control.

The fact is sir...those that hold to calvin does this for good reasons...it is in the Bible. I do not worship calvin. If he says somethiing stupid...i chuck it out the window. Your words suggest you have never read Calvin or Arminius, but rather read others about both men.

Those that hold to God in control, takes the bible in full context. We never have to change the meaning on each verse. We never have to say this verse does not apply to me when it comes to salvation. We believe grace is grace...and always is grace. We change not the meaning to mean what best fits our doctrine.

election is election sir...it is applied to a single person...to nations... to small groups and to the church. But it always means..choosen by God. So when we read it in context...we keep it there and do not apply it in other ways outside of context. If you do apply outside of context, you change Gods word.

I have no idea how you apply it, but it is clear by your comments you do not apply it as it is found in the context.

In Christ...James