Eph 1:5

You'll just have to convince all those who are governing themselves now, won't you?

You are not convincing me! You have no evidence that is convincing!

 

What about the verses I gave you? What do they mean? If God is in control of mans speech and walking ability and direction that doesn't leave much to man does it?

 

If God is in control of man's speech, walking ability, and direction, why do God's pastors go where they should not, say what they should not, and do it under their own will?

If God is in control of all of every man's abilities, then man would be nothing more than a puppet. Are you a puppet?

Did Paul not complain of not being able to be ALL that he could be because he did that which he shouldn't do? How could such a dominant apostle of God be so out of God's control to be able to do that which he should not do?

Could it be that the proverbs that you posted are not entirely the whole truth? Could it be that the bible contains some errant teachings?

 

Is this what you think wes? I for one think the Bible in its WHOLE...is true. Now tells us if you believe like wise?

 

Gee Jarthur001, so do I, so how do we resolve this dilemma where God's chosen servants do their own thing, in light of the scriptures that say man cannot do that? Is God directing them into sin? Does God do that?

I believe you should learn to think things through Jarthur. Do we accept the literalness of those proverbs, or do we look at the reality of life as it happens? YOU cannot have it both ways!

 

Again Wes,
What do those verse MEAN. EXPAIN them !

why do God's pastors go where they should not, say what they should not...

Who says that they do? This would go AGAINST the Proverbs verses, wouldn't they? I say they go EXACTLY where He wants them to go and say EXACTLY what He wants them to say.

 

wes wes wes.....there you go again.

why is it you think you are the only one with wisdom?

you yourself said you were arrogant....and yet you just keep being that way.

i'll not spead a lot of time on this...the reader can read for himself. Below is the text. I think the key verse is verse 3.

1The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

***no need to add anything to this

2All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit.

*** man thinks he is OK...but God looks at his heart

3Commit your work to the LORD, and your plans will be established.

***aaw the key verse. Commit to the LORD..then your plans become His plans

4The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

***Still..God in control God made the wicked? yep..that is what it says. Did he make them to be wicked? it didn't say that..it says he made them.

5Every one who is arrogant is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

***notice...the willful one..those that want to have it their way....mans will...over Gods will...will not go unpunished

6By loyalty and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.

*** by loyalty and faithfulness....or by worshiping the LORD..sins are atoned..and this starts...with a fear of God. before this ...it is mans evil will not leting God in control


7When a man's ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

***After salvation..this new path...Gods way...you will even have peace...even if you have enemies

8Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues with injustice.

***Leave God in control...do not take matters in your own hand


9A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.

A man's will wants to plan his way. But WITH GOD IN CONTROL..the Lords way..will direct you right.

hummm .

mans will?
or Gods will?

now that i replied to you...
tell me more about this..."Man's God given sovereignty"

i've got to hear this one

 

So God sent jimmy Swaggert out on the town whoring around?.....Right! He did that of his own free will!

Jim Bakker was led by God to cook the books, over book reservations, and generally conduct business in an ungodly manner?.....Right! He did it of his own free will!

You just don't know what you're talking about!

 

Man meant it for evil, God MEANT it for good.
Enough said.

 

Nuff said alright you don't know what you're talking about!

 

Answer to first question: Because this post shows that you are lacking in it!

 

Answer to first question: Because this post shows that you are lacking in it! </font>[/QUOTE]humm well...

hey...i lack wisdom...for sure.

i do not know it all...i look for the truth.

The wise also will hear and increase in learning, and the person of understanding will acquire skill and attain to sound counsel

I try never to place myself above wisdom itself.

To you, everyone is a fool...stupid...and lacks wisdom and understanding..unless they believe you. If only these fools would listen to me..you cry.

Every one who is arrogant is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

yet you have a right to be arrogant..you have a big family

you make off the wall, rather bizaare statements like..

Man's God given sovereignty...and
remember the ..."deed judgement"...
and the church is not the elect....
and think you are wise. Yet you show your own foolish understanding and listen NOT to the verse posted showing your foolish ways.

You keep asking what Grace is and i and others have told you many times. Let me tell you again in another way. Grace was what i showed you over the "deed judgement". I could have laid you out silly..but i did not.

i showed mercy..."power under control"

Just a few lines ago you ask..."well maybe the Bible is not telling the truth"...in a mock of what someone said. No one but a fool could joke about the Bible such as you do.

Proverbs 14:9 - Fools make a mock at sin:

Ecclesiastes 7:4 - The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

there are so many post that you make that are so bizaare that i just pass them over with no reply

You can not see past your pride. Your will to CONTROL blinds you. pride fills your heart...and makes you think you have much understanding..yet your words tell another stroy.

i have much to learn..you said it...i say it too.
...and i will never know it all. I try my best to remove all pride and place it in Gods hands for His teaching yet sometimes i let my pride rule me too.

Proverbs 11:2 - When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom

In the end i know my heart. i think can only see your actions...only God knows your heart

i'm at peace with my God

now let me ask again wes...tell me more about this "Man's God given sovereignty"

Thanks

 

Wes said "The CHURCH is NOT the elect"?

Is that correct? I must of missed that one.

Funny , the word eklesia in itself means the ELECT ONES ... ha ! lol....

 

I have just recently began reading posts in this forum. This issue has surfaced in a church 30 minutes from here and has generated some discussion among our folks.

I apologize in advance if my thoughts are repeat thoughts.

The way I read this passage, when Paul writes this portion of the letter to the Ephesians, he is stating that Gentiles, as well as Jews, were chosen from the foundation of the world to receive the blessing of the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. It is not Scriptural evidence of unconditional election, IMO.

 

The way I read this passage, when Paul writes this portion of the letter to the Ephesians, he is stating that Gentiles, as well as Jews, were chosen from the foundation of the world to receive the blessing of the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. It is not Scriptural evidence of unconditional election, IMO. </font>[/QUOTE]election is used in only one verse in the 1st chapter. it is verse 3 or 4..i can't remember now. some push election on verse 1..."Gods will". maybe this is true..but i see no need to force it.

verse 9..i think..is a picture of election..but still..its more about what comes after election

i think it is verse 3...the key verse...blessings from God. Most all of this is talking about what we get from salvation. predistanation is not election. yet some read it as such.

read john piper on this


in christ....james

 

Not by the definition of elect that you have repeatedly posted.

 

The way I read this passage, when Paul writes this portion of the letter to the Ephesians, he is stating that Gentiles, as well as Jews, were chosen from the foundation of the world to receive the blessing of the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. It is not Scriptural evidence of unconditional election, IMO. </font>[/QUOTE]Suggest you also read john 17:1-26. Note the thoughts Paul uses are quite similar to those of Jesus when describing the apostles.

 

Answer to first question: Because this post shows that you are lacking in it! </font>[/QUOTE]humm well...

hey...i lack wisdom...for sure.

i do not know it all...i look for the truth.

The wise also will hear and increase in learning, and the person of understanding will acquire skill and attain to sound counsel

I try never to place myself above wisdom itself.

To you, everyone is a fool...stupid...and lacks wisdom and understanding..unless they believe you. If only these fools would listen to me..you cry.

Every one who is arrogant is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

yet you have a right to be arrogant..you have a big family

you make off the wall, rather bizaare statements like..

Man's God given sovereignty...and
remember the ..."deed judgement"...
and the church is not the elect....
and think you are wise. Yet you show your own foolish understanding and listen NOT to the verse posted showing your foolish ways.

You keep asking what Grace is and i and others have told you many times. Let me tell you again in another way. Grace was what i showed you over the "deed judgement". I could have laid you out silly..but i did not.

i showed mercy..."power under control"

Just a few lines ago you ask..."well maybe the Bible is not telling the truth"...in a mock of what someone said. No one but a fool could joke about the Bible such as you do.

Proverbs 14:9 - Fools make a mock at sin:

Ecclesiastes 7:4 - The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

there are so many post that you make that are so bizaare that i just pass them over with no reply

You can not see past your pride. Your will to CONTROL blinds you. pride fills your heart...and makes you think you have much understanding..yet your words tell another stroy.

i have much to learn..you said it...i say it too.
...and i will never know it all. I try my best to remove all pride and place it in Gods hands for His teaching yet sometimes i let my pride rule me too.

Proverbs 11:2 - When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom

In the end i know my heart. i think can only see your actions...only God knows your heart

i'm at peace with my God

now let me ask again wes...tell me more about this "Man's God given sovereignty"

Thanks </font>[/QUOTE]I take it you don't like my style? Is that right?

 

THat's the definition Wes. The Church is the elect for salvation. Look up the root, it is called ones, those called OUT.

Ephesians is showing predestination. Those chosen Greek and Jew = world. It does no harm to the PRINCIPLE behind the context even though Paul NOWHERE makes a distinction between anybody in the text. Pauld is stating there are chosen people and they where chosen BEFORE the creation. Pauls pupose was to show they are elect and WHEN they were elected.

 

OK, now how does one become part of the Church?