Eph. 1: Does it support Calvinism?

[Salamander]

It's a funny thing that some don't understand that our Omniscient God foreknew everybody.

Or do some really think God doesn't know everyone ever born and even before they were born?

I know some will immediately refer to the words of Christ saying, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you" as to mean God only knows them that are His. He still knows them that are not His to the effect he knows they rejected Christ, but He still knows who and what they are.

This is true to the effect only that God knew those who had received the Gospel as those who received the Gospel.

God either knows all, or He isn't God.

God knows all who receive, and God knows all that won't. God also knows all who receive the Gospel are the ones He chooses to make holy and w/o blame in Christ, because God knows that is the only way one can become holy and w/o blame.

Seems some know things God doesn't know.

Excuse me for staying on topic.raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Salamander]

Thanks, you just proved out point with verse after verse clearly stating that we have been predestined to salvation.

All men are predestined to salvation, and God would have all men to be saved, but all men won't be saved because of their rejection of Christ.

It doesn't reduce the power of God to say He can't and won't save all men, it just goes to prove that all men have the power to bey the Gospel to either receive the Gospel or choose to excercise their power to reject the Gospel.

The verses emphatically show that all men are dead and that grace believed must be received.

Grace received is done by choice, else it is not received but forced upon men.

That would make grace forcibly placed upon a man, then it would not be grace anymore, but Law.

The Calviniast will not respond correctly to the above statement because he cannot discern the differences between grace and the Law. He chooses rather to mix grace with the Law remaining still somewhat confused between the two.raying:

Grace has it's "laws" that regulate it, but grace is never the Law in it has power that the Law doesn't have power. That is, grace has power to save, where the Law only has power to be the schoolmaster to teach us the need for grace that saves from the awful penalty for sin/death.

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Dale-c]

All men are predestined to salvation, and God would have all men to be saved, but all men won't be saved because of their rejection of Christ.

You have that exactly oposite: all men are on their way to hell, unless God saves them.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Salamander,

It's a funny thing that some don't understand that our Omniscient God foreknew everybody.

Yes..tis funny that some would not understand that. Now you want to hear something even funnier? Get this will ya!! Believe it or not, some thank God...(God having the meaning of Lord Sovereign)....The Holy Almighty Ruler....The High and Lifed Up One...Creator even,... of ALL things... is some how not in control of all things. Can you believe it? Trust me...there are some that say this. Yet read what the Bible says.

1 Chronicles 29:11-12:
11 Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.


What does that remind you of? I tell you what I think of, it is the great book of Daniel. The book of Daniel is one of the top 3 books, showing God in full control. But I like the 4th Chapter best, on this subject. Daniel gave his pen to the King Nebuchadnezzar, so that he could write this chapter on his own under the leadership of Holy Spirit. Nebuchadnezzar had a dream...Danial told him what it meant. Then the events of the dream as Daniel said took place....Lets take a look.



28All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

29At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. <<<He here is God..just in case some do not know.

33The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth (this would be me, oh yes..and you too) are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


That is good stuff there man!! We have a great God that does as HE pleases and man cannot "stay his hand".

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Salamander,

Or do some really think God doesn't know everyone ever born and even before they were born?

God knows all God is in full control.

I know some will immediately refer to the words of Christ saying, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you" as to mean God only knows them that are His. He still knows them that are not His to the effect he knows they rejected Christ, but He still knows who and what they are.

God does indeed know all things. Know also means as in Mary..."Knew her not". As in a relationship.

God either knows all, or He isn't God.
I agree 100%

God knows all who receive, and God knows all that won't.

I agree 100%

God also knows all who receive the Gospel are the ones He chooses to make holy and w/o blame in Christ, because God knows that is the only way one can become holy and w/o blame.

I agree with the statement. Lets look at the words. Holy means separation. Saint has the same idea as holy/separation and is found in verse one. We are then choosen to be saints..a separation form the sinners, without blaim.. Blaim here is the same idea as guilt. Our guilt comes from our sin. How then are we blaimless? We are though the atonement of Christ blood, paid to God, and this is where the blaimless part comes in....justified of our sins.

So, we are choosen to be saints....a separtion from the sinners...or even separted from the world, if you will, to be without blaim...or justified. Is how I would read it.

If we make this short..we are choosen to be saints who are justified.

Seems some know things God doesn't know.

And that is a shame.

Excuse me for staying on topic.

NO..you did will. Good points. Good debate.

 

[Brother Bob]

BD17;
Nothing you quoted says anything about before the foundation of the world. How can you read Scriptures like that and the say from the foundation of the world. The emphasis you put on the Scriptures you posted is just plain wrong. peace:Fish:

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Salamander,

All men are predestined to salvation, and God would have all men to be saved, but all men won't be saved because of their rejection of Christ.

Humm. I'm pretty sure you did not mean this as worded. I mean the 1st part. I know what you mean, but I feel it was worded badly. Predestined to salvation, is using the word predestined in the same light as election. If all are not saved, then all are not predestined to salvation. Did you mean...all are called to salvation? If so..I would agree with that.

It doesn't reduce the power of God to say He can't and won't save all men, it just goes to prove that all men have the power to bey the Gospel to either receive the Gospel or choose to excercise their power to reject the Gospel.

Yes, this is true. All power does not mean all power is used at all times. In other words, God has the full power not to use full power. Yet this is not all that we must look at. Gods power is needed for salvation. Election is God showing his power in salvation.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

He who grabs who is the one that holds you. <<(i like that..NOTE..use in next book )
The picture you draw, this is not what we see. We see Gods power in salvation and in keeping.


Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

If God is sovereign and man is depraved....then it follows as a natural consequence that some will be saved, none will be saved or, all will be saved. The results of election are that some, ....even many, will be saved. Election is not a plan to save a mere handful of folk. Christ gave Himself a ransom for many.

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

Grace received is done by choice, else it is not received but forced upon men.

All men are saved though faith. Not force.

Romans 11:17
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (elect) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

2 Thess 2:13
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation"

If the elect obtain salvation....and if election is to salvation....election must precede salvation. Men are saved when they believe on Christ not when they are elected.

The Calviniast will not respond correctly to the above statement because he cannot discern the differences between grace and the Law. He chooses rather to mix grace with the Law remaining still somewhat confused between the two.

Humm


In Christ....james

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,


I just wanted to say in public, I have been hard, and rough at times on your posting. I'm sorry for going over board on some of these statements. I also want to say, that the last few post by you have stayed on focus of the subject and have given good arguments. Being that I have ponited out when they are not..(and we all do this at times)..it is only fair to give credit when credit is owed you. You have shown that a real debate can take place.


Thanks for your input.



In Christ..James

 

[Brother Bob]

Hello Bob,


I just wanted to say in public, I have been hard, and rough at times on your posting. I'm sorry for going over board on some of these statements. I also want to say, that the last few post by you have stayed on focus of the subject and have given good arguments. Being that I have ponited out when they are not..(and we all do this at times)..it is only fair to give credit when credit is owed you. You have shown that a real debate can take place.


Thanks for your input

James;
There is much that could be said but I guess the least said the least mended so if you man enough to apologize I am man enough to accept.:Fish:

 

[Salamander]

You have that exactly oposite: all men are on their way to hell, unless God saves them.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

All men are on their wway to hell, unles they receive the gift of God/ His Son. II Timothy shows us the will of God in saving men as He "would" have all men saved, but the will of man that goes contrary to gthe will of God is what guarentees his place in hell.

If you Calvinists would learn to rightly divide the Word of God you would not be insisting upon your false doctrine.raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Salamander,

All men are on their wway to hell, unles they receive the gift of God/ His Son. II Timothy shows us the will of God in saving men as He "would" have all men saved, but the will of man that goes contrary to gthe will of God is what guarentees his place in hell.

If you Calvinists would learn to rightly divide the Word of God you would not be insisting upon your false doctrine.raise: :Fish: raise:

You see...statements like this...we could all say and use if we had no control.

But we have gone down the road before. No need to travel it again.

All men are on their wway to hell, unles they receive the gift of God/ His Son.

I agree

II Timothy shows us the will of God in saving men as He "would" have all men saved

yes...we call this the calling of all men to salvation

but the will of man that goes contrary to gthe will of God is what guarentees his place in hell

Agreed

sounds like "T" to me.

If you Calvinists would learn to rightly divide the Word of God you would not be insisting upon your false doctrine

From your post, it looks like we agree on these things. That is...and this is key...as you stated them. I know you have other meanings.


In Christ...James

 

[saturneptune]

Jarthur,
I see you are still spinning your web.

 

[Brother Bob]

Main Entry: 1that
Pronunciation: '[th]at, [th]&t
Function: pronoun
Inflected Form(s): plural those /'[th]Oz/
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English thæt, neut. demonstrative pronoun & definite article; akin to Old High German daz, neuter demonstrative pronoun & definite article, Greek to, Latin istud, neuter demonstrative pronoun
1 a : the person, thing, or idea indicated, mentioned, or understood from the situation <that is my father>

Just a word aid for anyone who does not know "that" can mean a "person", as in that Scripture quoter is lacking in understanding. Peace, :Fish:

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarthur,
I see you are still spinning your web.

I see you still have yet to post a point.
I see you have yet to post a verse.
I see you have yet to address the subject.
I see you have yet to speak of doctrine.
I see you have yet to talk of faith.
I see you have yet to share Christ name.
I see you have yet to talk of salvation
I see nothing about God from your post on this tread.
I see you have yet to say anything, other then say something about me.

Maybe you have no ideas.
Maybe? I don't know.​

If you do..share. If not...keep posting about me.:smilewinkgrin:

I'm a big dude...I can take it.

In Christ...James

 

[The Archangel]

Salamander

Salamander,

There are questions I have for you about this post. You said:

All men are predestined to salvation, and God would have all men to be saved, but all men won't be saved because of their rejection of Christ.

It doesn't reduce the power of God to say He can't and won't save all men, it just goes to prove that all men have the power to bey the Gospel to either receive the Gospel or choose to excercise their power to reject the Gospel.

If all are predestined to salvation, why aren’t all saved? Is not God said to be Omnipotent?

Further, how do you explain Psalm 115:3 which says, “Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.” (ESV)?

Your post would seem to suggest that Man, not God, is sovereign over salvation. Is that so, and how do you explain your position (with scripture)?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Salamander]

Salamander,

There are questions I have for you about this post. You said:

If all are predestined to salvation, why aren’t all saved? Is not God said to be Omnipotent?

God is more than just said to be Omnipotent, he IS Omnipotent!

In the realm of sin, does God have power over men to make them sin so they have to be saved? No.

God offers power over sin, in that He is Omnipotent.

God knows the power of sin and gives grace to overpower the effects of sin and offers the way to avoid temptation: He is Omnipotent.

satan is able to tempt men to sin, man chooses to sucumb to temptation and sin, it is within his will. God is still Omnipotent.

Since God is Holy, Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, then why does God allow sin? So that sinful men m,ight see their need for the Ominpotent God over the power of sin that they might be saved, just as God would have all men to be saved, BUT, men still, by their God given will, reject Christ and go to a devil's hell.

One need not look too deeply to see the puirpose of God to save men and thereby punish the devil with both men that he thought he robbed God of by tempting them to sin and also adding fuel to the flames by sending men to help him burn that rejected the Gospel. Gos IS Omnipotent.

, how do you explain Psalm 115:2-4which says:"Wherefore should the heathen say, Where [is] now their God?
But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. "
KJB
Their idols [are] silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

?

Simply that the gods of the heathen are works of men's hands and they have no power except that which men give them, much as the Calvinist would give God only so much power to save men as if He predestinated only the ones chosen before creation, and that is NOT what Eph 1:4 is referring to.

I

t would seem to suggest that Man, not God, is sovereign over salvation. Is that so, and how do you explain your position (with scripture)?

No, never said that. God is sovereign over salvation. Man is sovereign over whether or not he succumbs to temtpation. Big difference huh?

Man is sovereign over whether or not he accepts God's gift of salvation, which God is still Sovereign over salvation.

Blessings

The Archangel

I find it offensive for you to sign off as The Archangel.raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[The Archangel]

Salamander,

You wrote: I find it offensive for you to sign off as The Archangel.

What does this have to do with anything???? What if I had a pet salamander and I didn’t like your post and was, therefore, offended at your “sign-off” using and, I’m assuming, besmirching my pet…would that matter?

Anyway, to the matter at hand. I am reluctant to enter into a debate with someone whose most logical statement was against my sign-off name. But, here we go!

You said: All men are predestined to salvation…

IF all men are predestined to Salvation, why aren’t all saved.

I know, because of their rejection of Christ… But this creates a problem: IF God predestines all to salvation and He is Omnipotent and He does all He pleases, why aren’t all men saved?

Gotta go. More later. In your response, please answer the question I asked. Please do not go on to write a long diatribe about something we are not talking about.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Salamander]

Salamander,

You wrote: I find it offensive for you to sign off as The Archangel.

What does this have to do with anything???? What if I had a pet salamander and I didn’t like your post and was, therefore, offended at your “sign-off” using and, I’m assuming, besmirching my pet…would that matter?

Well since there are many salamanders and only one Archangel, your objection is over-ruled.

Anyway, to the matter at hand. I am reluctant to enter into a debate with someone whose most logical statement was against my sign-off name. But, here we go!

Just where have you been for the last two weeks and 12 pages?

You said:

All men are predestined to salvation…

IF all men are predestined to Salvation, why aren’t all saved.

Ask a question with a "?" mark please.

I know, because of their rejection of Christ… But this creates a problem: IF God predestines all to salvation and He is Omnipotent and He does all He pleases, why aren’t all men saved?

Simply because men are created in the image of God and have a will of their own to receive or reject the Gospel.

Gotta go. More later. In your response, please answer the question I asked. Please do not go on to write a long diatribe about something we are not talking about.

Blessings,

The not-Archangel

Your question has been answered on every page of this thread. You dont accept that men have a will to receive the Gospel call or reject it. You took the verse out of context of what God does that He pleases. ou have allowed the doctrines of men to control the framework of your thought processes and cannot understand. Therefore your arguement will continue from that mindset and refuse the clear teachings of the Bible concerning God calling men to salvation.

Of course you do that according to your will to choose what you desire to believe, but may I suggest you lay aside the doctrines of men and re-read your Bible?

If you're going to use a verse to substanciate your belief system, at least understand that others know the context first, then you wont try that again until you're certain that what you think the verse is saying is actually true?

Your belief that the Omnipotence of God only fits in the box of calvinism and that is the only way he is Sovereign, but have I got news for you? You might try to pit God against Himself, but it just won't fit Bible Doctrine.raying:


2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Salamander]

BTW< what's wrong with my "sign-off" and how does it offend your pet?

It reads as follows:raise: :Fish: raise:

And for the less informed that reads: "PRAISE JESUS!!!"raise:

 

[The Archangel]

Oh Brother!

Salamander,

It is obvious that you would rather spend more time writing insulting comments and pointing-out honest mistakes (like forgetting a question mark) than engaging in an honest discussion.

You have yet to answer my questions and you write high-and-mighty epithets about how you are right and how I am wrong. Yet you refuse to engage the questions and argue your perspective from Scripture.

For this reason, I am done with talking to you…not because I don’t like you. I prefer to engage in worthwhile discussions with people who like to discuss matters of Scripture. You have proven yourself to be a person who is either unwilling or unable to engage in a brotherly, constructive, Scriptural discussion. In fact, rather than discuss, you have turned to the ad hominem argument on numerous occasions.

So, brother, fair well and consider answering the questions people ask you and remember: How you talk to your fellow Christians says much more about you than what you say.

Blessings,

The Archangel